N90 (Newark Area) to PHL FOIA's

[WavesAndClouds]

Love all the special rules. Like how 2 of the facilities have no business being level 11 but it’s New York.

Love how you care….

 

[Electricfence]

Other than people owning homes there/not wanting to relocate. Which is a fairly big issue

thats not what i was asking about, i was asking about the operations but it is a big issue. however they would be paid to move and in this market those houses would sell immediately, and for probably a lot more than they bought them for. while unfortunate they would have to move its not like they would be hurting financially. and they would be off the island, isnt that a win win?

From what I understand they have a diverging line where planes can be separated ifr by target sep as long as they are on their side of the line for like EWR and LGA areas for common configurations. Moving the tracon would put an end to this and would effectively cut the operation down significantly as there is no way to run both airports simultaneously at their upper aar’s without this separation waiver.

thanks for the answer this is what im curious about. your basically saying green in between for ifr? why does them being in the same building allow them to do this? why couldn't they complete this operation when the located in different buildings?

 

[inthrewtheoutdor]

Having a single bravo airspace controlled by different facilities, good idea..

 

[N90-EWR]

thats not what i was asking about, i was asking about the operations but it is a big issue. however they would be paid to move and in this market those houses would sell immediately, and for probably a lot more than they bought them for. while unfortunate they would have to move its not like they would be hurting financially. and they would be off the island, isnt that a win win?


thanks for the answer this is what im curious about. your basically saying green in between for ifr? why does them being in the same building allow them to do this? why couldn't they complete this operation when the located in different buildings?

Very complex airspace and operation that has quite a few unique "procedures". The class B is shared by 3 different areas. There's airspace that flip flops which area owns it depending on the flow. These things are covered in the facility SOP. Taking the EWR area away would require a number of changes to the SOP, require new LOA's between N90 and PHL, and significantly impact the operation. In particular EWR departures would face extra delays when on the NE flow if the "special use line" couldn't be used as is anymore. There would also be a significant negative impact to TEB and/or LGA anytime that LGA needs to run the ILS13. That particular operation requires an extraordinary amount of coordination when flipping the airspace back and forth, and if you take one area out of the building, it's no longer an easy task.

There's other things that would get impacted, such as the Liberty area losing quick communication with EWR and satellite departure for departure stops, flow control, etc, which currently is done either with a quick override call, or even a simple verbal exchange since the two areas are next to each other.

 

[N90-EWR]

Love all the special rules. Like how 2 of the facilities have no business being level 11 but it’s New York.

Ahh, yet another sour grapes miserable soul! Listen cupcake..if you want the "easy" high level money all you gotta do is bid there! It's very easy to whine about it from somewhere else!

 

[I.DO.VEHCTAHS]

Love all the special rules. Like how 2 of the facilities have no business being level 11 but it’s New York.

Ahhhh the traffic count fairies have arrived. This shit has already been debunked. Kindly continue to go fahk yerself

But in all honestly…it’s nice to see all the “my supe/manager said it’s definitely happening” assholes disappear. It was never going to happen. Anyone who actually thought the faa could pull this off…you are 100% the reason the faa will continue to be the faa.

 

[boots]

Love how you care….

What do you mean? Creating special rules is bullshit. My as well bump any towers in the vicinity of a center to a matching level. Fair is fair.

Ahhhh the traffic count fairies have arrived. This shit has already been debunked. Kindly continue to go fahk yerself

But in all honestly…it’s nice to see all the “my supe/manager said it’s definitely happening” assholes disappear. It was never going to happen. Anyone who actually thought the faa could pull this off…you are 100% the reason the faa will continue to be the faa.

traffic count fairies? Kindly do yourself a favor and look up the TCI and tell me how many months (years) jfk has been under the number.

Thanks

 

[Phanatical]

What do you mean? Creating special rules is bullshit. My as well bump any towers in the vicinity of a center to a matching level. Fair is fair.

traffic count fairies? Kindly do yourself a favor and look up the TCI and tell me how many months (years) jfk has been under the number.

Thanks

12 years, for those playing along at home.

 

[I.DO.VEHCTAHS]

What do you mean? Creating special rules is bullshit. My as well bump any towers in the vicinity of a center to a matching level. Fair is fair.

traffic count fairies? Kindly do yourself a favor and look up the TCI and tell me how many months (years) jfk has been under the number.

Thanks

Feel free to go check yourself. I’ve posted the numbers here previously. But keep the false narrative going #phillytraconmafia

 

[boots]

Feel free to go check yourself. I’ve posted the numbers here previously. But keep the false narrative going #phillytraconmafia

There is no false narrative. It’s located on aap.faa. Hope this helps.

 

[Nothanks]

Metropolitan tower complex MOU is where it states that people in New York area towers get to be overpaid for their respective traffic count. Wonder why that MOU is so hard to find.

 

[ChrisDaGr8]

I heard that they're going to start picking up more people on a priority bid to work the EWR sector at PHL. Apparently, some big names like the FAA head and United CEO were there recently. Anyone have any more info on this?

 

[FightingIrish2012]

I heard that they're going to start picking up more people on a priority bid to work the EWR sector at PHL. Apparently, some big names like the FAA head and United CEO were there recently. Anyone have any more info on this?

It’s going to written into FAA Reauthorization that this happens, so they can do it, or else the FAA won’t exist.

 

[GulfCharlie]

NATCA N90

This week has been very busy and interesting to say the least. The EBOARD has been once again diligently working and fighting yet another plan by the Agency regarding the EWR/PHL move.

NATCA was briefed by the Agency yesterday reference a conceptual timeline to move EWR. We have dealt with this numerous times in the past 3.5 years. As a reminder, we are no longer collaborative and now governed by Article 7 of our CBA for all matters related to the divesture of the EWR airspace. NATCA is not at the table to collaborate, instead the Agency provides a proposal to NATCA and NATCA then has the ability to request briefings and then retort any issues. To be clear, NATCA National and NATCA N90's position remains the same. This move is unsafe, inefficient, and will not only be a hazard to the NAS but will lead to a reduction in efficiency.

The political climate in the Senate is anticipated to change during the next election cycle. With that, there may be a new majority leader with different motives and policy than the current administration. With FAA Reauthorization looming, there are still many unknowns. The Senate passed a bipartisan bill today and now the next step is reconciliation with the House bill.

The goal of NATCA N90 is and has been to protect N90 and the rights and benefits of all of its members. We have full support of Rich and we are working with him very closely every single day. We assume that there will be updates and changes coming in the next week or so. We will continue to update.

In Solidarity
The New York Tracon Executive Board

 

[GulfCharlie]

Sisters and Brothers,



NATCA National President, Rich Santa, requested meetings with the Local Executive Boards at both N90 and PHL to discuss the status of the EWR Sector Relocation Project. N90 Local Eboard meeting was held on February 5, 2024. N90 meeting was attending by N90 Fac Rep and other N90 elected reps, NEA RVP, NEA ARVPs and Rich Santa. Rich wanted PHL Fac Rep on N90 call and vice versa. PHL Eboard call was held February 6, 2024. All 4 members of PHL Eboard were in attendance along with N90 Fac Rep, NEA RVP, NEA ARVPs and Rich. Rich wanted to provide all the information he had, take questions, and ask for feedback regarding future negotiations.



Background Information:



PHL and N90 Fac Reps were briefed that this project was agreed to at the National Level and work started in accordance with the National CWG signed in October 2020. Not long after the workgroup was formed, two National MOUs were signed in 2021. These three original agreements were in place when Rich Santa became National President in September 2021.



The EWR Sector Relocation Project was underway with the understanding that there would be no forced moves to make the project happen. After several attempts by Agency to solicit volunteers, the Agency decided to give notice to N90 controllers that they would be forced into a 2-year TDY. At this point, Rich removed the Union from the project and returned to traditional bargaining for any changes to working conditions regarding the EWR Sector Relocation Project. This change from collaboration, within the scope of a CWG, to traditional bargaining occurred in April 2023. The forced TDYs were stopped by the Department of Transportation and Senate Majority Leader Schumer (D-NY).



Summary of meetings held on February 5 and 6



Rich understands that there is a lot of uncertainty in both Locals and is trying to be as honest and upfront as he can. Unfortunately, Rich believes that the landscape has changed within Congress, particularly within the Senate, and that the FAA is going to pursue completing the EWR Sector Relocation Project aggressively. Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) received a briefing from the FAA last week on the status of the project and the plans to complete it. Senator Cruz appears to be pushing for this project to happen. Why he would be so interested in using his influence with the Senate Commerce Committee is speculative since Senator Cruz and his staff have not agreed to hear from NATCA or any union for that matter in a long time. Rich believes it was possible that Senator Cruz would seek to include language in the FAA Reauthorization Bill during Bill mark-up earlier this week. It appears the Senate Version of FAA Reauthorization Bill that just passed the Senate Commerce Committee does not include language about this project. The House version of the Bill does have language to continue and complete the project. The current House version also has language that states there will be no forced moves to complete the project. Eventually, the House and Senate will meet to agree on one Bill that will be voted on by the full House and Senate. During this process, it is possible that that language can be amended or removed. The current language in the House Bill, while it states that there will be no forced moves, does not include any funding to ensure that voluntary moves are properly incentivized. Rich believes that Senator Cruz and other member of Congress have the willingness to push the project forward. Unfortunately, Rich also believes that the strong opposition to this project from other Members of Congress isn’t there anymore.



The Agency wants to complete this project. The Agency continues to justify the move to Congress with flawed data that NATCA has been arguing against with our aviation partners, Airline Executives, Congress and the media. However, it appears there is no ground swell of support to push back against Senator Cruz or at least not enough support to deter him and the Agency. It also appears the media is not interested in making the possible forced move of more than 30 families a story to pursue.



With this political landscape change, Rich wanted the PHL and N90 locals to know what is currently at stake. Since NATCA pulled out of collaboration back in April 2023, Rich has been vehemently opposed to this project. He has always believed that this is a bad idea for the NAS and for the Union. He made it clear to the N90 and PHL Reps that he will continue to oppose the project as the Agency reengages him through traditional bargaining. He wanted us to know that it is possible that with Congressional support, NATCA could lose the fight and the project would continue without incentives for those that would move. He spoke at length of the various options he could pursue during traditional bargaining to incentivize both N90 and PHL. However, that is not the same as his current position which is the Union does not support EWR Sector Relocation Project.



Rich not only described different strategies he could take in negotiations, but he also asked the Reps on the call if they had any questions or ideas regarding negotiating for incentives. He asked the N90 Reps to discuss with the members what is happening now and what could be possible. Rich is willing to fight based on the direction provided by the two locals.



PHL Eboard members had a lot of questions for Rich, just as N90 reps did, and we also were asked to consider what direction we want in any future negotiations. We are currently making a list for Rich in a similar way to the N90 members. Please remember, the stakes for those members in the EWR Sector are different than the challenges we will have here at PHL. I can’t imagine how it must feel or those members that may be forced to leave their homes.



The decision to proceed is being made by the FAA. Senator Schumer has validated that it is the FAA’S decision and NATCA has the right to negotiate incentives. Even if we agree to incentives, it’s a part of negotiations that are required. NATCA will still not be collaborative in the processes unless we wanted to be. That does mean incentives for N90 and PHL. Be assured that if NATCA does move in the direction of negotiating for incentives, PHL will not be forgotten in the process. NATCA will continue to fight for what is most important to our membership. Rich acknowledges that money is what is most important to the membership so incentives will be negotiated on both sides if that’s the path we choose. Monetary incentives are not the only things we could potentially negotiate. The fear is that if we fight and it becomes a forced assignment, then any opportunities for incentives would be lost. Rich feels that there is zero chance moving the airspace will work. To get the incentives paid out, if that’s the way we go, NATCA is going to have to give the FAA some recommendations. The goal is to publicly say that this airspace relocation is not going to work. PHL is a stand-alone facility and N90 is a stand-alone facility. They are both successful at what they do and the Agency’s plan will forever change PHL while taking a big piece out of the capacity and safety provided by N90.



The Agency is looking to move this project along quickly so N90 controllers being moved to PHL will be their tactic. However, it must be noted that having PHL controllers go and train at N90 isn’t something we should consider off the table. It seems unlikely that is a viable option as that would take several years to complete if the plan was to send PHL to N90, but it is still an option the Agency may bring up.


These were posted on the r/atc2 Reddit and warrant further discussion. Seems NATCA is trying to pin it all on Ted Cruz >.>

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Build it into FAA Reauthorization and codify it into law. Fuck PHL and N90. Nothing against them personally but they are about to renew the slate book. I want as many people pissed in as many areas as possible and I want a new union negotiating the next contract.

 

[GulfCharlie]

Build it into FAA Reauthorization and codify it into law. Fuck PHL and N90. Nothing against them personally but they are about to renew the slate book. I want as many people pissed in as many areas as possible and I want a new union negotiating the next contract.

I just am floored they negotiated behind the memberships back

 

[boots]

Build it into FAA Reauthorization and codify it into law. Fuck PHL and N90. Nothing against them personally but they are about to renew the slate book. I want as many people pissed in as many areas as possible and I want a new union negotiating the next contract.

Hell ya new contract 2032

 

[theflyingpig]

so rinaldi negotiated this behind the backs of the membership. just like he did with privatization and the extension of the slate book…and he’s still on NATCA’s payroll? Why?????

F him and his pasta sauce

 

[Bandit117]

Metropolitan tower complex MOU is where it states that people in New York area towers get to be overpaid for their respective traffic count. Wonder why that MOU is so hard to find.

I have never been able to find it. Have you? I only find references to it, never the actual agreement