Hiring Bid FAA-ATO-19-ALLSRCE-61676

[Bart Harley Jarvis]

Before I went to the academy I didn't know the difference between enroute and terminal I spent 18 years of my life driving by ZDC thinking it was a Verizon building. But by the end of OKC I felt just as well versed as any CTI graduate. I'm not saying CTI isn't a good starting point but from my experience it didn't seem to be a necessity. Either you can do the job or you can't.

 

[JNev]

Before I went to the academy I didn't know the difference between enroute and terminal I spent 18 years of my life driving by ZDC thinking it was a Verizon building. But by the end of OKC I felt just as well versed as any CTI graduate. I'm not saying CTI isn't a good starting point but from my experience it didn't seem to be a necessity. Either you can do the job or you can't.

I 100% agree it’s far from a necessity and fully acknowledge there are plenty of OTS who more than excel at this job. But if there’s a ~15% better pass rate from well run CTI schools than straight OTS, then doesn’t it serve everyone better to just do CTI well than continue to do OTS?

 

[Bart Harley Jarvis]

I 100% agree it’s far from a necessity and fully acknowledge there are plenty of OTS who more than excel at this job. But if there’s a ~15% better pass rate from well run CTI schools than straight OTS, then doesn’t it serve everyone better to just do CTI well than continue to do OTS?

If we were to crunch numbers and look at the data it would more than likely support the idea of doing CTI to academy as opposed to sprinkling OTS bids in there. But I'm also biased because I knew nothing about ATC and yet I've never felt more rewarded in any other field than when I did Sims at OKC and during my brief time during training and talking to real pilots.

Nothing I've ever done professionally will ever come close to that. So I'm biased about keeping the OTS as an option and am hoping to get picked up again because no other career will be able to bring me the job satisfaction this one does.

 

[32andBelow]

Before I went to the academy I didn't know the difference between enroute and terminal I spent 18 years of my life driving by ZDC thinking it was a Verizon building. But by the end of OKC I felt just as well versed as any CTI graduate. I'm not saying CTI isn't a good starting point but from my experience it didn't seem to be a necessity. Either you can do the job or you can't.

A lot of us went to CTI back when it was the only way to get hired. Then we all got screwed. So it’s very emotional to talk about it yes or no.

 

[Schu04]

A lot of us went to CTI back when it was the only way to get hired. Then we all got screwed. So it’s very emotional to talk about it yes or no.

Everyone knows that you guys got screwed. It sucks for everyone who had to take the BioQ and aged out, sucks for the people who had to wait 6 years or whatever paying off huge student loans. That’s why I said let everyone who is best qualified in. No more drawing names out of a hat. If CTI does well on the ATSA they’re in. Can’t be mad at that.

 

[denver0739]

To me it’s not just about a percent that passes. Sure, that’s a good goal to have. But, how many of the OTS peeps(myself included) would not be even counted towards “passing statistics”? We wouldn’t even have the option of being hired. Realistically, how many people would go to college for specific thing? Even med school has multiple options along the way. This, not so much.

Really, I wouldn’t leave my old job, even with its meager pay, to go move to a “good” CTI school and then PAY them to teach me basics just so I could HOPE to get picked up by the FAA to still further go into job jeopardy at the academy for option specific training. That doesn’t even include pass/fail at a facility.

People like me, who have a shot at it, it’s not because we paid to go to school for a “general” degree like something in business that can be used in a variety of careers. It’s because they open the doors to us OTS people. Sure you could argue that the passing percentage would be higher, but your total number of applicants would be 50-70% less.

How many people would honestly go to a CTI school, leave their job, pay somebody else, then try to find a job and hope to get picked up by the FAA and not get tier-2 in the process and pass medical and so on and so forth. It’s just too risky, not many people would give up their lives for that. The way it’s structured now, it gives people who couldn’t afford the school but, had the aptitude, the opportunity to try it at a minimal risk to their livelihood.

FWIW both of my instructors in basics right now were OTS. Just sayin’

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

To me it’s not just about a percent that passes. Sure, that’s a good goal to have. But, how many of the OTS peeps(myself included) would not be even counted towards “passing statistics”? We wouldn’t even have the option of being hired. Realistically, how many people would go to college for specific thing? Even med school has multiple options along the way. This, not so much.

Really, I wouldn’t leave my old job, even with its meager pay, to go move to a “good” CTI school and then PAY them to teach me basics just so I could HOPE to get picked up by the FAA to still further go into job jeopardy at the academy for option specific training. That doesn’t even include pass/fail at a facility.

People like me, who have a shot at it, it’s not because we paid to go to school for a “general” degree like something in business that can be used in a variety of careers. It’s because they open the doors to us OTS people. Sure you could argue that the passing percentage would be higher, but your total number of applicants would be 50-70% less.

How many people would honestly go to a CTI school, leave their job, pay somebody else, then try to find a job and hope to get picked up by the FAA and not get tier-2 in the process and pass medical and so on and so forth. It’s just too risky, not many people would give up their lives for that. The way it’s structured now, it gives people who couldn’t afford the school but, had the aptitude, the opportunity to try it at a minimal risk to their livelihood.

FWIW both of my instructors in basics right now were OTS. Just sayin’

And yet thousands of CTI graduates did just that...

The background of your academy instructor is useless information. I wouldn't say that being an academy instructor is a highly desired or sought after position. I know some are retired controllers but other are those who just don't want to, or can't work traffic.

 

[JNev]

Everyone knows that you guys got screwed. It sucks for everyone who had to take the BioQ and aged out, sucks for the people who had to wait 6 years or whatever paying off huge student loans. That’s why I said let everyone who is best qualified in. No more drawing names out of a hat. If CTI does well on the ATSA they’re in. Can’t be mad at that.

You have a lot more faith in the ATSA than I do

 

[yoboiconnor]

The only 2 CTI kids that were in my class didn’t make it. I get the argument that only allowing CTI kids from government overseen programs would raise the pass rates but at the end of the day was there any preparation for the final evals and all that pressure? I’d say that getting a CTI degree makes it even worse because you have more on the line. Everyone in my class knew the same stuff and it was those who could handle themselves well that passed. Passing the academy is 80% aptitude and intelligence, neither of which you can change. Getting a 2-4 year degree and spending thousands just to get you that tiny leg up isn’t worth it when you can be solidifying a plan B with a different degree.

 

[JNev]

I don’t think the government should be deciding if it’s “worth it” to get a tiny leg up, that’s an individual’s decision. If we had even 5% more staffing across the NAS, that’s 700 more controllers which we could definitely use.
Also, really I’m most thinking we could save a LOT of money by straight up getting rid of basics. The administration costs, per diem costs, and even material cost savings would be substantial.
I really hope no one is getting the idea anyone thinks eliminating OTS would be a silver bullet, I just think it would help at the margins. The OTS people who made it would have found something other than ATC if it weren’t an option because not many dummies can make it through the academy.

 

[boots]

I 100% agree it’s far from a necessity and fully acknowledge there are plenty of OTS who more than excel at this job. But if there’s a ~15% better pass rate from well run CTI schools than straight OTS, then doesn’t it serve everyone better to just do CTI well than continue to do OTS?

No

 

[Stevo62]

No

CTI schools are there for 1 purpose to make money. If a CTI school was failing 50% of their students like the academy no one would go there so it's in their best interest to pass as many questionable students as they can...good for business. I've seen as many CTI students fail as OTS so if you think 1 is better than the other you are mistaken. ATC has always been a government civil service job and will always be based on open competitive bids, not if you can afford to go to a special school (they tried that). Which is why we have the OTS bids back again

 

[JNev]

No

Really, 15% more controllers into the NAS isn’t beneficial to everyone? ?

CTI schools are there for 1 purpose to make money. If a CTI school was failing 50% of their students like the academy no one would go there so it's in their best interest to pass as many questionable students as they can...good for business. I've seen as many CTI students fail as OTS so if you think 1 is better than the other you are mistaken. ATC has always been a government civil service job and will always be based on open competitive bids, not if you can afford to go to a special school (they tried that). Which is why we have the OTS bids back again

CTI has never and never should replace the “across the street” portion of the academy. Anyone suggesting that is out of their minds. The idea of it replacing Basics and saving massive amounts of money that way is a fiscally sound and responsible idea. Almost everyone passes basics at the academy like almost everyone passes CTI. I get that they’re there to make money for their schools but it should be possible to have standards and not pass students who don’t meet those standards while also making money

 

[boots]

CTI schools are there for 1 purpose to make money. If a CTI school was failing 50% of their students like the academy no one would go there so it's in their best interest to pass as many questionable students as they can...good for business. I've seen as many CTI students fail as OTS so if you think 1 is better than the other you are mistaken. ATC has always been a government civil service job and will always be based on open competitive bids, not if you can afford to go to a special school (they tried that). Which is why we have the OTS bids back again

I agree

 

[jballen004 Tubadude2]

I get that they’re there to make money for their schools but it should be possible to have standards and not pass students who don’t meet those standards while also making money

And yet, here we are, without said standards in place. ??‍♂️
Until the day comes when those standards DO exist, you can’t really blame the FAA for searching elsewhere for qualified candidates.
Oh and full disclosure, I’m OTS, and some of the smartest folks in my class were CTI, so I’m not diminishing the merits of some of the programs out there.

 

[Stevo62]

And yet, here we are, without said standards in place. ??‍♂️
Until the day comes when those standards DO exist, you can’t really blame the FAA for searching elsewhere for qualified candidates.
Oh and full disclosure, I’m OTS, and some of the smartest folks in my class were CTI, so I’m not diminishing the merits of some of the programs out there.

Lol not smarter just had 2 years more training/ practice and the difference between you and them is minimal go figure...money well spent

 

[32andBelow]

And yet, here we are, without said standards in place. ??‍♂️
Until the day comes when those standards DO exist, you can’t really blame the FAA for searching elsewhere for qualified candidates.
Oh and full disclosure, I’m OTS, and some of the smartest folks in my class were CTI, so I’m not diminishing the merits of some of the programs out there.

They were all set to start weighing the different CTI school based on their merit. Then sequestration happened. Then they Invented the bio q instead.

 

[HalfPR]

Random arguing in the forum while we are bored waiting? This feels like a real thread now!

 

[KAB]

To add to all of this, no one said a CTI school had to have you major in ATC and get a degree in it. Some of them have it as a minor. So you can get a degree in Aviation Management, Professional Pilot, Maintenance, Dispatch, etc. and minor in ATC. That way, the teacher doesn't have to worry about passing questionable students and keeping them from getting a degree (therefore giving the institution a bad name) because it's just a few classes, not their entire major. Plus, if you wash out somewhere in the process, you have your actual degree to fall back on.

But of course, only pulling from CTI would only work if there were TONS of easy to get scholarships or forgivable government loans AND if the government HIGHLY audited the classes and gave specific lesson plans and materials instead of just a short list of vague requirements and have FAA proctors for something like a pilot's check-ride or dispatch oral and practical... which, if you have seen how a Dispatch class is run, you'll know that the FAA is more than capable of doing all of that.

 

[ChuckMastaT]

Random arguing in the forum while we are bored waiting? This feels like a real thread now!

No kidding, I thought I missed somethng today when I checked and saw all the replies. Nope. This is now a CTI thread haha