Hiring Bid FAA-ATO-19-ALLSRCE-61676

[MagioX1]

Last year there were only a couple hundred best qualified applicants from Pool 1 as opposed to about 800 from Pool 2. Really sunk the hiring numbers for Pool 2 applicants

Yep. The difference between Pool 1 and Pool 2 cannot be great the +/-10%

 

[ABACUS]

Just judging from my experience as an Instructor at the Academy, CTI grads and Vets do have a higher pass rate. Some CTI schools are exceptional, many of the grads from them can go straight to the field as far as most instructors are concerned.....and the FAA should do direct hires from them. Beaver in Pennsylvania is tops, and there are 2 or 3 others that are very good, the graduates always do well. It is about time something was done to recognize the hard work and yes, dedication to the profession that some of the CTI grads have demonstrated in working for their degree and Certificate. The hiring process has always seemed a bit unfair and missed its mark for the CTI grads....

I agree some are top notch, but how do you differentiate between the CTI programs? Some are pure trash and probably have pass rates below OTS because of the crap those kids have in their heads from school.

 

[JNev]

I agree some are top notch, but how do you differentiate between the CTI programs? Some are pure trash and probably have pass rates below OTS because of the crap those kids have in their heads from school.

That’s on the FAA. If properly executed (granted that’s the biggest reach) it, CTI could be an incredible resource. They just couldn’t say no to the schools shoving money in their face though and it deteriorated rather quickly

 

[KAB]

I feel like the problem is that the CTI evaluations are mostly just self-reporting. So of course the schools are going to make themselves look good. Also, the curriculum is very vague and let's instructors have a lot of leeway in how they teach. In my opinion, there just needs to be a more structured and audited set of specific learning objectives. If CTI is supposed to replace Academy Basics now, it should probably be closer to that. And if, in the future, it's seen as a source for direct hiring, it should be structured exactly like the Academy classes that it's trying to replace. But that's just my two cents on the matter with my experience completing a CTI program.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

I feel like the problem is that the CTI evaluations are mostly just self-reporting. So of course the schools are going to make themselves look good. Also, the curriculum is very vague and let's instructors have a lot of leeway in how they teach. In my opinion, there just needs to be a more structured and audited set of specific learning objectives. If CTI is supposed to replace Academy Basics now, it should probably be closer to that. And if, in the future, it's seen as a source for direct hiring, it should be structured exactly like the Academy classes that it's trying to replace. But that's just my two cents on the matter with my experience completing a CTI program.

The good CTI schools are structured exactly like the Academy...
#1 if your school doesn't have the capability of lab simulation (not just table tops) then it shouldn't be a CTI school. (Unless the goal is simply to skip basics)

 

[DeltaAlphaOscar]

I know this thread is a bit dead compared to last year's OTS thread, but where are all the people with privy information on this bid? I mean numbers of applicants, # per pool,.... or is it too soon for that info. I'm predicting pretty low numbers but who knows, I need more apt people to apply in pool 1 to avoid what happened last year.

 

[32andBelow]

I feel like the problem is that the CTI evaluations are mostly just self-reporting. So of course the schools are going to make themselves look good. Also, the curriculum is very vague and let's instructors have a lot of leeway in how they teach. In my opinion, there just needs to be a more structured and audited set of specific learning objectives. If CTI is supposed to replace Academy Basics now, it should probably be closer to that. And if, in the future, it's seen as a source for direct hiring, it should be structured exactly like the Academy classes that it's trying to replace. But that's just my two cents on the matter with my experience completing a CTI program.

When I went to CTI we had sims better than Oklahoma and we took a basics from the literal basics PowerPoints

 

[KAB]

When I went to CTI we had sims better than Oklahoma and we took a basics from the literal basics PowerPoints

My school did that too. And using the Basics powerpoints is part of the vague requirements. But schools really don't have to do much more than just have them up on the board and give a quiz. The quiz doesn't have to be in depth or difficult and it's not a standardized quiz by any means. That's pretty much all that worries me. That some instructors might do the bare minimum.

 

[JNev]

My school did that too. And using the Basics powerpoints is part of the vague requirements. But schools really don't have to do much more than just have them up on the board and give a quiz. The quiz doesn't have to be in depth or difficult and it's not a standardized quiz by any means. That's pretty much all that worries me. That some instructors might do the bare minimum.

They spend a ridiculous amount of money on Basics, and the fact is people would PAY THEM to do Basics at a CTI school. If the FAA just spent even 1/3 the money on overseeing, say like 10 CTI schools they could come out way ahead and wouldn't have to spend money on the public bid either. I'm not saying good controllers don't come from public bids, but what is the real need to do one? If people want to be an ATC, then go to the CTI school or join the military.

It wouldn't be easy to police the schools, but it's certainly possible and a worthwhile goal imo. The schools just need to be honest and upfront about the risks people are taking and not just pass everyone. Even Basics at the academy is like a 95%+ pass rate I'd imagine.

I'll probably get flamed for this but it's how I feel

 

[ABACUS]

They spend a ridiculous amount of money on Basics, and the fact is people would PAY THEM to do Basics at a CTI school. If the FAA just spent even 1/3 the money on overseeing, say like 10 CTI schools they could come out way ahead and wouldn't have to spend money on the public bid either. I'm not saying good controllers don't come from public bids, but what is the real need to do one? If people want to be an ATC, then go to the CTI school or join the military.

It wouldn't be easy to police the schools, but it's certainly possible and a worthwhile goal imo. The schools just need to be honest and upfront about the risks people are taking and not just pass everyone. Even Basics at the academy is like a 95%+ pass rate I'd imagine.

I'll probably get flamed for this but it's how I feel

I disagree. We all know how useless a CTI degree is when you actually get to the OJT. There shouldn’t be a paid barrier to entry that isn’t even that helpful.

 

[JNev]

I disagree. We all know how useless a CTI degree is when you actually get to the OJT. There shouldn’t be a paid barrier to entry that isn’t even that helpful.

I mean I'm not saying CTI degree = stud controller (That's very far from the case), but I would honestly be surprised if the pass rate of the top 5-10 CTI schools is not notably better than OTS. (Again, nothing against OTS hires at all there are tons that are excellent controllers) The cash grab, garbage CTI schools that the FAA allowed really tainted the whole thing for everyone, along with the entitled attitude a lot of CTIers had for God knows what reason. Just trying to minimize waste and get the most possible juice from the squeeze per se. As for the "paid barrier", I think that's pretty much standard across the board for all jobs nowadays. If you don't have a degree, even an Associates at a Community College (which is how I got mine), you're not really considered. Also, it doesn't cost money to join the military and go that route

 

[StealthChain]

I mean I'm not saying CTI degree = stud controller (That's very far from the case), but I would honestly be surprised if the pass rate of the top 5-10 CTI schools is not notably better than OTS. (Again, nothing against OTS hires at all there are tons that are excellent controllers) The cash grab, garbage CTI schools that the FAA allowed really tainted the whole thing for everyone, along with the entitled attitude a lot of CTIers had for God knows what reason. Just trying to minimize waste and get the most possible juice from the squeeze per se. As for the "paid barrier", I think that's pretty much standard across the board for all jobs nowadays. If you don't have a degree, even an Associates at a Community College (which is how I got mine), you're not really considered. Also, it doesn't cost money to join the military and go that route

The thing with CTI would be, do they fall under "Experienced" due to the degree or do they get their own annual/semi-annual hiring bid? There is a way to control the standardization of education by simply creating an accreditation board, either through the FAA or through NATCA. Yes, it would take a little work which could be enough cause for them to say "the current way works just fine, lets not mess with it". But in doing this, you rid the cash grabbing schools that don't provide the same level of training as the top schools. If a school doesn't provide the same level of knowledge as the academy, or close to it, they lose/or never achieve accreditation. Saves a lot of people a lot of money.

 

[JNev]

The thing with CTI would be, do they fall under "Experienced" due to the degree or do they get their own annual/semi-annual hiring bid? There is a way to control the standardization of education by simply creating an accreditation board, either through the FAA or through NATCA. Yes, it would take a little work which could be enough cause for them to say "the current way works just fine, lets not mess with it". But in doing this, you rid the cash grabbing schools that don't provide the same level of training as the top schools. If a school doesn't provide the same level of knowledge as the academy, or close to it, they lose/or never achieve accreditation. Saves a lot of people a lot of money.

I would certainly never consider myself or anyone who has gone through CTI as "Experienced". I just believe they could do away with Basics and save money on that while also getting a higher pass rate and higher quality candidates by taking from military and CTI only. Lets be honest, Basics is a joke for anyone who attended even the worst CTI school and the fact we were paid Per Diem and salary to sit there and listen to lectures even the instructors knew were overdone is incredibly wasteful.

Edit: Sorry for derailing the thread and I’m sure this will be moved

 

[Mr.Tickles]

Maybe instead of creating an additional requirement for a CTI degree don't give those with a CTI degree a choice to do basics. They simply go straight into Terminal or EnRoute basics.

I'm curious though...do you think the majority of CTI grads are better off than someone with no CTI background? I can't say I could even tell the slightest difference with our six or seven CTI grads in our class. Not to mention two or three of them failed.

 

[penaltyvectors]

The problem is, as long as CTI schools are private organizations that are trying to make money, then there's zero incentive on their part to turn away even the worst students. I've heard stories of CTI schools allowing a kid to attend and graduate who couldn't even hold a medical and so could never be a controller. Some of my classmates who went CTI told stories of students who were so hopeless that they'd never be able to graduate the academy in a million years. Their professors and everyone else know this, but as long as the kid's willing to pay, that's not their problem.

A basics class just before mine had a CTI student who only passed Basics by one point - he was by far the lowest score in his class, and he failed out early in evals. Anecdotally, I saw a higher percentage of CTI students wash out from the academy and from facilities than true OTS people, and I think that's due to the same problems that prior experience people sometimes have - it's much easier to learn something correctly once than to try to unlearn something that you believe you're already good at.

 

[JNev]

Maybe instead of creating an additional requirement for a CTI degree don't give those with a CTI degree a choice to do basics. They simply go straight into Terminal or EnRoute basics.

I'm curious though...do you think the majority of CTI grads are better off than someone with no CTI background? I can't say I could even tell the slightest difference with our six or seven CTI grads in our class. Not to mention two or three of them failed.

I can only speak from my experience but it was very very evident during basics who was CTI and who wasn’t. (5/7 who passed were CTI, and 5/7 CTI in my class passed) Again, not all CTI schools are equal and it’s disgraceful that some of the shams that got accreditation call themselves CTI. If you really think someone who spent 4 years at ERAU would be the same as a Starbucks barista or bank teller then idk what to tell you. ERAU still doing CTI right now is really awful and as a graduate of theirs (Business) I’m ashamed theyre really stealing from these kids, but that’s besides the point.

 

[Schu04]

Maybe instead of creating an additional requirement for a CTI degree don't give those with a CTI degree a choice to do basics. They simply go straight into Terminal or EnRoute basics.

I'm curious though...do you think the majority of CTI grads are better off than someone with no CTI background? I can't say I could even tell the slightest difference with our six or seven CTI grads in our class. Not to mention two or three of them failed.

I think the longer they try to give advantages to CTI grads, the longer there will be a major staffing crisis.

I can only speak from my experience but it was very very evident during basics who was CTI and who wasn’t. (5/7 who passed were CTI, and 5/7 CTI in my class passed) Again, not all CTI schools are equal and it’s disgraceful that some of the shams that got accreditation call themselves CTI. If you really think someone who spent 4 years at ERAU would be the same as a Starbucks barista or bank teller then idk what to tell you. ERAU still doing CTI right now is really awful and as a graduate of theirs (Business) I’m ashamed theyre really stealing from these kids, but that’s besides the point.

Attending ERAU or any CTI school doesn’t automatically mean that you have the aptitude to do the job. It just means that you learned about it earlier. I was a bank teller out of school, and I feel like I’m doing pretty well so far. The numbers indicate that there were many pool 2 well qualified people that didn’t get a shot because there is a push to give preferential treatment to one side. It think it’s bogus.

 

[KiloZulu]

I think the longer they try to give advantages to CTI grads, the longer there will be a major staffing crisis.

Part of the problem seems to be the training shortage as well, so flooding the pipeline might not help.

 

[JNev]

Attending ERAU or any CTI school doesn’t automatically mean that you have the aptitude to do the job. It just means that you learned about it earlier. I was a bank teller out of school, and I feel like I’m doing pretty well so far. The numbers indicate that there were many pool 2 well qualified people that didn’t get a shot because there is a push to give preferential treatment to one side. It think it’s bogus.

This is taken directly from my post just 8 replies up...
"I mean I'm not saying CTI degree = stud controller (That's very far from the case), but I would honestly be surprised if the pass rate of the top 5-10 CTI schools is not notably better than OTS. (Again, nothing against OTS hires at all there are tons that are excellent controllers) Just trying to minimize waste and get the most possible juice from the squeeze per se."

Also lets not minimize the pain that one suffers when they fail. My wife (OTS) went to the academy before me and didn't pass and it really messed her up for awhile. Most of the people in my class who didn't pass left OKC before even saying goodbye because it was so brutal for them and I totally understand that. I can't imagine investing all this time and effort into something, telling all my family and friends about an unbelievable career and then failing. Putting people in the academy who have the best chance to pass is best for everyone involved.

 

[Schu04]

This is taken directly from my post just 8 replies up...
"I mean I'm not saying CTI degree = stud controller (That's very far from the case), but I would honestly be surprised if the pass rate of the top 5-10 CTI schools is not notably better than OTS. (Again, nothing against OTS hires at all there are tons that are excellent controllers) Just trying to minimize waste and get the most possible juice from the squeeze per se."

Also lets not minimize the pain that one suffers when they fail. My wife (OTS) went to the academy before me and didn't pass and it really messed her up for awhile. Most of the people in my class who didn't pass left OKC before even saying goodbye because it was so brutal for them and I totally understand that. I can't imagine investing all this time and effort into something, telling all my family and friends about an unbelievable career and then failing. Putting people in the academy who have the best chance to pass is best for everyone involved.

Hey, I would love to see the numbers on the pass rates. My argument is let’s take down the 10% law, send everyone who is “best qualified” to the academy and see what happens. If 75% of CTI grads and vets passes, and only 50% of OTS passes, I’ll shut up and you would still have more people in the long run.