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Ad1234

Active Member
Messages
70
I’ve heard through the grapevine that AZO was nowhere near level 8 numbers that were promised once everything got consolidated and running, and with all this they won’t be even getting the chance to try anytime soon. The level 8 was a lie, AZO is a now a middle 7.

GRR has stuff going for it, it’s a great place to live even at 5 pay, but MKG, MBS, FNT etc all at level 4 pay? Hell no
This is not a comment on your comment at all. It’s funny to me the general Thought process is let’s distrust management and union higher-ups at every turn, but then trust them enough to Not complain too much during or do any work to prove them otherwise, but then blame them after the fact for what they promised. Hilarious.
I wonder if anyone not involved in the decision making did the math to show them it wasn’t going to be what was promised?
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
561
This is not a comment on your comment at all. It’s funny to me the general Thought process is let’s distrust management and union higher-ups at every turn, but then trust them enough to Not complain too much during or do any work to prove them otherwise, but then blame them after the fact for what they promised. Hilarious.
I wonder if anyone not involved in the decision making did the math to show them it wasn’t going to be what was promised?
Doing the math to simulate the traffic count is impossible they say. I am not sure what the final word on AZO is I hear some people involved with that say they are a mid 7 at best after the consolidation, others say they were running level 8 numbers before COVID ruined it. Looks like even if the latter is true they will stay a 7 for some time until traffic improves.
 

PushingTin

Legendary Member
Messages
908
Doing the math to simulate the traffic count is impossible they say. I am not sure what the final word on AZO is I hear some people involved with that say they are a mid 7 at best after the consolidation, others say they were running level 8 numbers before COVID ruined it. Looks like even if the latter is true they will stay a 7 for some time until traffic improves.
Have you seen or heard the Michigan governor? She's a real beauty. Lol traffic ain't coming back there anytime soon. She won't even let people fish in the middle of the beautiful lakes or visit their cottages in BFE. Thank god many of the Sheriffs up there are Patriots.
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
561
Have you seen or heard the Michigan governor? She's a real beauty. Lol traffic ain't coming back there anytime soon. She won't even let people fish in the middle of the beautiful lakes or visit their cottages in BFE. Thank god many of the Sheriffs up there are Patriots.
That's a good point, I haven't heard in the news specifically that GA flying is cancelled but if you can't canoe alone on a lake or visit your doomsday prepper cabin in the woods I would assume flying is curtailed as well.
 

HenryTheAce

Trusted Contributor
Messages
261
If he did so what? I'm sure he put 100+ extra hours into the project and took a lot of shit from people at all six facilities. It is kind of weird he would not stay at the home base but he probably stood out on the ranking lists at Detroit Tower or APCH or wherever he went for being a recognized figure with a work ethic.
Rumor is here at Detroit he had RPO experience, that’s what got him here, and that alone....
 

BCHOOSIER

Active Member
Messages
53
I think there should be some clarity to some of the information being posted;
- Local reps didn't get much say in the matter of if their facility should or shouldn't be consolidated. They did some questionnaires with controllers about four years prior but the decision to consolidated was made at a "higher" level. The Agency has an individual that the majority of his job is to look into and review who should or shouldn't be 804'd.
- Don't believe every rumor. I don't know who is being referred to as the "architect" but if you're thinking of a controller and they transferred to Detroit, I would say that is false.
-Again, most "guidance" came from a national workgroup not the local level. Only after it was officially going to happen is when local workgroups were formed or should I say stacked with people to get the job done. Some facilities had considerably more representation on some workgroups and well majority rules.
- NATCA's traffic count committee did supposedly (we never received the exact numbers) run countless models to try and predict the facility's TCI number. We were told a "solid" level 8 many times. With that said this was a very large project and this type of consolidation was something of a new endeavor. I think those guys did the best job they could.
- AZO was trending upwards prior to COVID but because of the way the TCI is figured, you really have to wait about a year to get a true number.
- Lastly, I think it's important to note and remember that when several important decisions were being made about consolidation it was the same time Zilonis was the RVP and running for president. Regardless of which side you fell on, I think the fractured relationship between both sides (Zilonis and national) didn't help some of the facilities and its members during some key parts of consolidation.
 
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DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
941
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Have you seen or heard the Michigan governor? She's a real beauty. Lol traffic ain't coming back there anytime soon. She won't even let people fish in the middle of the beautiful lakes or visit their cottages in BFE. Thank god many of the Sheriffs up there are Patriots.
weren’t you ranting and raving at the beginning of all this about how slow everyone was to implement social distancing measures and shutting shit down? But now we got patriotic sheriffs for refusing to donjust that? You’re so full of shit dude. Just gotta be contrarian to everything. You flip flop on more issues than your boy Trump.
 

Easybreezybeautiful

Trusted Contributor
Messages
96
weren’t you ranting and raving at the beginning of all this about how slow everyone was to implement social distancing measures and shutting shit down? But now we got patriotic sheriffs for refusing to donjust that? You’re so full of shit dude. Just gotta be contrarian to everything. You flip flop on more issues than your boy Trump.
He didn’t say that.
And if he did, he didn’t mean it!
And if he did, someone else said worse!
But if they didn’t, you’re a snowflake!
 

corn4ahead

Trusted Contributor
Messages
466
S

So $1000-$1400 bonus after tax to learn and certify on new airspace.
My point exactly. It’s not much. Meanwhile, if you were coming from one of the facilities getting consolidated. You get 5k to start at new facility, 5k once completely certified AND 26k move money if you qualified. Oh, AND the difference in facility pay level. The controllers already at the receiving facilities get very very little incentives.
 

PushingTin

Legendary Member
Messages
908
He didn’t say that.
And if he did, he didn’t mean it!
And if he did, someone else said worse!
But if they didn’t, you’re a snowflake!
Just so! Some peeps are salty their unlimited OT has dried up thanx to Chi-nahhh virus!



- Local reps didn't get much say in the matter of if their facility should or shouldn't be consolidated. They did some questionnaires with controllers about four years prior but the decision to consolidated was made at a "higher" level. The Agency has an individual that the majority of his job is to look into and review who should or shouldn't be 804'd.
- Don't believe every rumor. I don't know who is being referred to as the "architect" but if you're thinking of a controller and they transferred to Detroit, I would say that is false.
-Again, most "guidance" came from a national workgroup not the local level. Only after it was officially going to happen is when local workgroups were formed or should I say stacked with people to get the job done. Some facilities had considerably more representation on some workgroups and well majority rules.
you make some good points imo, but i also think you are being a bit pollyanna about how the sausage is made. no one that had the power (we can quibble over how high up that goes fair enough) to, gave a shit about the small facilities that we be nuked and left for dead. collateral damage. so -not withstanding Covid- when the count isnt even as advertised for the Country Club, its kind of a force multiplier that snowballs agaisnt the whole thing. So if the context you want is "lets not criticize because its higher level that fucked it up", i disagree and say the criticism is fair. I can tell you speak from experience and its ballsy to even bring up Zilonis! Most of the Zilonis ppl were either implicitly or explicitly told "you will never amount to anything in this union" in no uncertain terms. So props for daring to utter that whcih is verboten!

- Local reps didn't get much say in the matter of if their facility should or shouldn't be consolidated. They did some questionnaires with controllers about four years prior but the decision to consolidated was made at a "higher" level. The Agency has an individual that the majority of his job is to look into and review who should or shouldn't be 804'd.
lol 2010 JetCareers Forum . One guy says " Kazaoo approach is already bogged down" , whatever that means. And then the best is the last guy.... " The FAA will do what it wants". :lol:

KAzoo1.png

Kazoo2.png
 
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PushingTin

Legendary Member
Messages
908
... you do understand that they're mocking you? Yes?

Lol obv. I agree with the post. You missed that part. I make a poor narcissist agreeing to criticism eh? And if I was too thick to get it, the fan boy likes are a good tell. Haters hate. Par for the course


js1.png
 

BCHOOSIER

Active Member
Messages
53
you make some good points imo, but i also think you are being a bit pollyanna about how the sausage is made. no one that had the power (we can quibble over how high up that goes fair enough) to, gave a shit about the small facilities that we be nuked and left for dead. collateral damage. so -not withstanding Covid- when the count isnt even as advertised for the Country Club, its kind of a force multiplier that snowballs agaisnt the whole thing. So if the context you want is "lets not criticize because its higher level that fucked it up", i disagree and say the criticism is fair. I can tell you speak from experience and its ballsy to even bring up Zilonis! Most of the Zilonis ppl were either implicitly or explicitly told "you will never amount to anything in this union" in no uncertain terms. So props for daring to utter that whcih is verboten!
What I was trying to point out is that as soon as 804 became a national project and resources from the Agency were used, the local level didn't have much say. Sure maybe a rep had more input then others because of a personal connection but overall the local levels didn't get a "vote" on the matter. As you pointed out the fight had been taking place for over 10 years. I've seen paperwork from 15 years ago talking about consolidation. What changed? The 804 workgroup. The term 804 gets thrown around all the time but all the 804 workgroup really does is recommend a facility's fate. The 804 group submits their annual report (I've seen it even posted on here before) with recommendations for facilities that fall into their criteria for review. If a facility is recommended, it goes to review from Congress, if it passes there the facility can continue the consolidation process. After the 804 group does their work they are done. It gets turned over to the national Article 76 workgroup. This is where a lot of decisions about each specific consolidation happens.
Be critical all you want, I could care less it's an internet forum. Hell, I've been plenty critical myself, but the idea that a local facrep of a small up down could change a decision that the Agency and NATCA had already agreed on (804 workgroup) is a little naive. I was just trying to provide some perspective to the topic. I personally feel that the moment that consolidation became official, it marked the death sentence for all those facilities. I hope it works out in the long run but I have my doubts.
As for the Zilonis comment, again I could careless which side one person falls on. When it came to this particular consolidation, at that current time, I feel the members and some at those facilities were caught in the middle by no fault of their own and it didn't benefit them during the consolidation process.
 

Cmsgthokage

Trusted Contributor
Messages
513
My point exactly. It’s not much. Meanwhile, if you were coming from one of the facilities getting consolidated. You get 5k to start at new facility, 5k once completely certified AND 26k move money if you qualified. Oh, AND the difference in facility pay level. The controllers already at the receiving facilities get very very little incentives.
That’s dope for the inbound controllers, but shitty for the ones already there. What level was AZO before the consolidation and what level were they projected to get to? Wonder if they could’ve negotiated getting the projected level pay immediately as an incentive instead of waiting.
 
Messages
4
That’s dope for the inbound controllers, but shitty for the ones already there. What level was AZO before the consolidation and what level were they projected to get to? Wonder if they could’ve negotiated getting the projected level pay immediately as an incentive instead of waiting.
AZO was a 6 before the consolidation. They were supposed to go up to an 8.
 
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