I've searched this forum and stuckmic without any luck of finding the answer. I'm thinking about putting in for Enroute fac and wanted to know if they will send you to the academy and if they do is it like RTF Pass/Pass? Thanks in advance.
CPC Tower to Enroute
- Thread starter MikeyMike
- Start date
breakaway2000
Forum Sage
- Messages
- 1,693
It's up to the specific center. With that being said, every center that I'm aware of will train you in house. They're all built to train.
breakaway2000
Forum Sage
- Messages
- 1,693
If you'd like it in writing... Per the 3120.4...
"a. CPCs transferring from the En Route option to the Terminal option or from the Terminal option to the En Route option need not attend initial qualification training for the new option or facility type at the FAA Academy. The specialist will be entered into the appropriate stage of field training as determined by the receiving facility ATM."
Now, if you are still a developmental and never achieved CPC status, you will be sent to the academy.
"d. En Route developmentals changing to a Terminal option, Terminal developmentals changing to the En Route option, and Terminal developmentals changing to a different facility type must attend initial qualification training for the new option or facility type."
"a. CPCs transferring from the En Route option to the Terminal option or from the Terminal option to the En Route option need not attend initial qualification training for the new option or facility type at the FAA Academy. The specialist will be entered into the appropriate stage of field training as determined by the receiving facility ATM."
Now, if you are still a developmental and never achieved CPC status, you will be sent to the academy.
"d. En Route developmentals changing to a Terminal option, Terminal developmentals changing to the En Route option, and Terminal developmentals changing to a different facility type must attend initial qualification training for the new option or facility type."
sailor_pianist
Member
- Messages
- 57
Quick question: if my ultimate goal is to work at a radar facility but I have a terminal FOL, is it better to choose a tower only after the academy, get certified then apply to a center (I'm assuming this would be the fastest option), or would the better option be to go to an up/down then apply for a center and possibly move to a tracon from there? My classmate (current CPC) has advised the centers/tracons don't look at anyone without a radar ticket during the panels, but I thought otherwise after reading through the NCEPT foruns on here.
It's kind of tough to tell now. Absolutely fastest way to be eligible to ERR is to go to a tower only. And for the first 7 panels tower only had a huge advantage in that regard. But starting right about now they've gotten most everyone close enough to the projected national average (except the special MOU facilities N90/C90/A80/LAX) that each facility will be selecting a small number of controllers per panel so it's probably going to shift back toward increased value for a radar ticket. Downside is an up/down will probably be a few years before you're eligible to ERR and the certifications the facility may need to increase its AOB to be able to release will be much slower.
So basically fastest way to get yourself on to the managers ranking list at facility X is to go tower only. But where you are on that list will matter more now than it has up until this point.
Mike Kilo
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 2,936
Some great points above. Another thing to consider is that some centers do not like people to already have radar experience. ZSE would not pick up people from my level 7 up down because of this, but would happily select from level 6 and 7 vfr towers in the area.
- Messages
- 2,129
- Facility
- N90 New York Tracon
Well the real question is do you want to work Center or do you want to work real radar?
sailor_pianist
Member
- Messages
- 57
Boss comment! Frankly, I don't know much about terminal radar. Even in school the two tracks focused on were enroute or terminal. Terminal radar may be where it's at!
- Messages
- 66
Going from a tower with no radar experiance, to a center is a huge leap! I strugled like crazy for the first year. These OKC grads were walking in the door are so far ahead. I almost withdrawn from training twice because the struggle was way to real, to say the least. I think the main problem is the centers/FAA dont have a training program in place for CPC-ITs going enroute. Before NCEPT this simply didnt happen for this reason. When I arrived at my FAC they were clueless on how and where to start training me because they never had to train someone with no radar experience that wasnt from OKC. The main frustration for me is they were just throwing things together and seeing if it would work with me. Something did and somethings were pointless, either way it sucks being on the short bus! Everything is so structured at the academy, it gives everyone a great foundation. All the courses they give at the Centers are based off of OKC airspace (Jaskson), so this makes it so much more sense to the OKC grads coming through. Riddle me this: you come from a level 12 radar fac to a level 4 tower, they send you to OKC but if you come from a 4 tower to 12 center they wont give you the option to go to OKC! My ATM begged the COO to send me and they denied the request. This is all very possible to succeed however its a very though hill to climb knowing you could more than likely cert at a tower in 6 months or so. 3-5 years is a long time to train knowing in the back of your mind you have the skills to be a tower controller. I ask myself everyday, why im I putting myself through the stress of radar training, but i still keep trying everyday. I get a $15,000 raise when i certify, at this point its more about pride than the money. Good luck to anyone transfering without OKC or radar experiance. Be prepared to get your ass kicked for at least 3 years, its mentally exhausting!
sailor_pianist
Member
- Messages
- 57
This is a great point I didn't consider. I begged for enroute before getting the FOL but it was denied. When I mentioned going from a tower to a center, all of the controllers stated that centers were "built to train", so it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I was wondering if an up/down would be better to select so I can get the terminal radar training and have some experience with radar before going enroute.
breakaway2000
Forum Sage
- Messages
- 1,693
To clean up a few things...
- Tower to Center was still common pre-NCEPT. Unfortunately, quality of training program's vary wildly from center to center. Some centers prefer a Radar ticket, like UScolt45 said, other centers prefer Tower only to teach from the ground up.
- Center CPC's who transfer to the Terminal environment are rarely, if ever, sent to the academy. In fact, the language is identical in the 3120.4 for each. See below...
a. CPCs transferring from the En Route option to the Terminal option or from the Terminal option to the En Route option need not attend initial qualification training for the new option or facility type at the FAA Academy. The specialist will be entered into the appropriate stage of field training as determined by the receiving facility ATM.
While your situation is unfortunate, the enroute academy curriculum is available to all CPC's on the FAA intranet. If anyone is in the process of making the jump from terminal to enroute and you want a better 'base' before you start, I can point you in the right direction on where to find the information.
- Messages
- 66
Agree with all, however they say centers are built to train but they are clueless on where and how to start training, because theyre not familiar. Before NECPT, centers never selected tower controllers with no radar experiance. I forsee this is going to be a huge problem. Theres simplely no training order in place for CPC tower tranfers to centers. If you struggle, ask them to send you to OKC in writing, this way if you go to a TRB you can use the deined request in your favor. Id highly recommend you go to a up/down facility over tower only, if your goal is to go to a center. The experience you will get working radar is huge! Starting from nothing is miserable! Good luck!
breakaway2000
Forum Sage
- Messages
- 1,693
Centers have selected 100's of tower only people with no radar experience prior to the NCEPT.
- Messages
- 66
Not accoding to my facrep and ATM. Id love to talk with these people. What fac are you talking about, from what tower to what center do you personally know someone? My ATM personally told me Im the first person to ever walk through his door with no radar experiance without OKC.
- Messages
- 253
- Facility
- ZTL Atlanta Center
Where are you at? Do you think the problem lies more in the training program? I have heard some really good things from some centers. My buddy certified at ZLC with no prior radar and said it was much more attitude than aptitude. I have no first hand experience but will soon when I show up at ZTL with 6 years AF Tower only and 2.5 years FAA at TWF which is Tower/ Non-Radar approach. I think no matter your experience it will take a good effort to make it
jdatc
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 688
Plenty of people have shown up at centers from towers. The FAA has all the material for them to run you through stage one at the center, It’s not overly difficult, and you get the benefit of doing things on your airspace.
What the hell center did you go to? I’ve been at 2, and they were fine with tower people without radar.
What the hell center did you go to? I’ve been at 2, and they were fine with tower people without radar.
breakaway2000
Forum Sage
- Messages
- 1,693
For reference sake, I'll try to pull the complete data next time I'm in, but for now, just looking at the NEST data from 2013-2014, 20 people from tower only with no prior radar experience washed from a center. One from ZAB that came from TUS for reference. That's just a two year sample size on the unsuccessful people. It's quite common.
Is your FacRep, ATM, and training department fairly new at ZAB? It certainly sucks you've had to go through that. It's really just... bizarre. Like jdatc said, all the information is readily available for them to give you.
