Fixing NCEPT/academy placement

[Dolan]

And what’s your opinion when the most senior person puts in for fac’s high on the priority list but washes/turns them down?

They go to the back of the line when they return to the prior facility or wherever nest puts them if they wash. I'm not sure how to handle declining a tol but if you aren't able to defer the transfer to someone else on the same panel a few panels of ineligibility makes sense to me. Still getting credit in the meantime.

 

[BDUB]

Put people where they want to be or around where they want to be out of the academy is one of the simplest and easiest ways to start. Of course people want to transfer immediately after cert when they’re living 1k miles away from where they want to be.

 

[twn]

Put people where they want to be or around where they want to be out of the academy is one of the simplest and easiest ways to start. Of course people want to transfer immediately after cert when they’re living 1k miles away from where they want to be.

I get it and I support that, but literally everyone can't end up at the same facilities. What about say a 5 year cpc service period at your first facility then you get to move to the facility of your choice?

 

[Raise when?]

New thread? Time to talk about pay and ask when our raise is coming. #raisewhen

I crave, a raise

 

[BDUB]

I get it and I support that, but literally everyone can't end up at the same facilities. What about say a 5 year cpc service period at your first facility then you get to move to the facility of your choice?

Maybe enact selective hiring in places that need people nobody wants to go. I’d venture to say country bumpkins would love a job that pays 90k in the middle of nowhere that is their home and they never want to leave. Boom that solves most of your lvl 4 and 5 problems. Then you could put just about everyone else around where they want to be. Stagnant movement because people would be content where they are. Eliminates most if not all quitting and people bidding everywhere in the NAS just to get out of shit holes. I’m not saying it eliminates the potential there’s still going to be those people but limit it substantially is a pretty solid start imo.

 

[KiloZulu]

Maybe enact selective hiring in places that need people nobody wants to go. I’d venture to say country bumpkins would love a job that pays 90k in the middle of nowhere that is their home and they never want to leave. Boom that solves most of your lvl 4 and 5 problems. Then you could put just about everyone else around where they want to be. Stagnant movement because people would be content where they are. Eliminates most if not all quitting and people bidding everywhere in the NAS just to get out of shit holes. I’m not saying it eliminates the potential there’s still going to be those people but limit it substantially is a pretty solid start imo.

Inb4 someone says people would just apply to literally every opening and then transfer out.

I agree with you, one can make a case against every possible placement method, so instead of using a system where some people are happy, they seemed to have settled on one that makes everyone unhappy.

 

[BDUB]

Inb4 someone says people would just apply to literally every opening and then transfer out.

I agree with you, one can make a case against every possible placement method, so instead of using a system where some people are happy, they seemed to have settled on one that makes everyone unhappy.

Easy sign a 5+ year contract. Incentivize that too the longer you promise to stay the higher the initial hiring bonus is. The government spends billions and yet somehow doesn’t comprehend that if you throw money at things that matter things get better like staffing. It’s not entirely the FAA’s fault it’s how congress designates money and always throws a fit when they have to fund necessary programs. Keep giving money to other countries and not investing in our own and then wonder why our infrastructure is breaking down. There’s a easier way to fix immediate staffing too involving contract facilities but I don’t want to offend anyone in this chat with that route…

 

[rhombus]

3 level cap would be too restrictive and be too much training. I think a 4 level cap is fair. You can get anywhere in 2 moves, even from a level 4. 3 level cap would mean MDW can’t feed ORD. A major problem with NCEPT right now is the mid level, 8&9s that don’t get AGs get fucked because so many people are jumping right to 10/11/12s. 8s and 9s are perfect training grounds for working steady traffic and give everyone a taste of really where they’re at before jumping to a core airport.

ANY level cap would be too restrictive for a lot of core facilities. Off the top of my head here are the NCEPT level jumps to my facility in the last 5 years who have certified: 7, 5, 0, 4, 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 6, 5, 2, -1, 6, 4, and 6

Those who were not successful: 6, 3, 4, 4, 5, and 6

“Go to a mid level facility before you go to the big houses” is the second most useless piece of boomer advice right behind “Get your radar ticket if you want to move up”. You can learn all the skills you need for the big houses at a low level facility. At the end of the day you either have the aptitude or you don’t.

Hiring 5,000+ new controllers and sending AG’s to level 8’s and 9’s again is the only way to solve our problems while keeping the current NCEPT framework in place

 

[FightingIrish2012]

ANY level cap would be too restrictive for a lot of core facilities. Off the top of my head here are the NCEPT level jumps to my facility in the last 5 years who have certified: 7, 5, 0, 4, 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 6, 5, 2, -1, 6, 4, and 6

Those who were not successful: 6, 3, 4, 4, 5, and 6

“Go to a mid level facility before you go to the big houses” is the second most useless piece of boomer advice right behind “Get your radar ticket if you want to move up”. You can learn all the skills you need for the big houses at a low level facility. At the end of the day you either have the aptitude or you don’t.

Hiring 5,000+ new controllers and sending AG’s to level 8’s and 9’s again is the only way to solve our problems while keeping the current NCEPT framework in place

I think they should hire 5K new controllers and send AG’s anywhere that needs them, even level 12’s. They did it in 2008-2014 or so and the training success rates were basically the same as now. The high level facilities with a good check out rate certified 85% of their OTS trainees, the high level facilities with shit training programs certified 40% (exactly like now).

And yeah, the go to a mid level to work your way up to the highs is useless advice and it’s disheartening that NATCA 100% believed it when they created NCEPT. The analogy they would often use was “it’s like going up from AA to AAA to the majors in baseball”. Maybe they thought that sounded cool. #menofthepeople

 

[Move78]

I think they should hire 5K new controllers and send AG’s anywhere that needs them, even level 12’s. They did it in 2008-2014 or so and the training success rates were basically the same as now. The high level facilities with a good check out rate certified 85% of their OTS trainees, the high level facilities with shit training programs certified 40% (exactly like now).

And yeah, the go to a mid level to work your way up to the highs is useless advice and it’s disheartening that NATCA 100% believed it when they created NCEPT. The analogy they would often use was “it’s like going up from AA to AAA to the majors in baseball”. Maybe they thought that sounded cool. #menofthepeople

The agency determined that the success rates for new hires at terminal 10-12s were not high enough and stopped that practice in 2015ish.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

The agency determined that the success rates for new hires at terminal 10-12s were not high enough and stopped that practice in 2015ish.

Maybe the determined that but I don't think the success rates for any better since then.

 

[boots]

ANY level cap would be too restrictive for a lot of core facilities. Off the top of my head here are the NCEPT level jumps to my facility in the last 5 years who have certified: 7, 5, 0, 4, 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 6, 5, 2, -1, 6, 4, and 6

Those who were not successful: 6, 3, 4, 4, 5, and 6

“Go to a mid level facility before you go to the big houses” is the second most useless piece of boomer advice right behind “Get your radar ticket if you want to move up”. You can learn all the skills you need for the big houses at a low level facility. At the end of the day you either have the aptitude or you don’t.

Hiring 5,000+ new controllers and sending AG’s to level 8’s and 9’s again is the only way to solve our problems while keeping the current NCEPT framework in place

100%

 

[Move78]

Maybe the determined that but I don't think the success rates for any better since then.

Are you AJG or are you just making things up

 

[DidYouDoYourNATPRO]

Are you AJG or are you just making things up

He's making shit up. Tower-only are no better and they are a complete waste of everyone's time. Training someone with a radar ticket is night and day. Even if they certify it's a 5 year ordeal that could net 2-3 controllers under normal circumstances

 

[JulietXray97]

We can all agree ncept is broken, half the posts on this forum are complaining about how broken it is but there seems to be a lack of ideas in how to fix it. I personally believe the placement system from the academy is also to blame and needs to be redone as well. This post is not to blame Mick or Santa or anyone else for the current issues, but to simply suggest an improvement.

The current plan out of the academy seems to be to place trainees at facilities that are short staffed, without considering why those facilities are short staffed. There are plenty of CPC's sitting at low level facilities that arent getting academy graduates, and are not able to release people either. All this is occuring while some facilities are getting multiple trainees a year, and are able to release as well. The ncept plan of allowing CPC's who can move to move into facilities they dont want to go to, while other CPC's are sitting at facilities they dont want to be at and cant release, so they cant get where they want to go is not working.

What if the placement out of the academy sent trainees to level 4,5 and 6's that are under 90% staffed only. The logic here is if you are at 90% and not releasing, clearly your CPC staff is happy and does not want to leave, so why would we send trainees to that facility. Send 1 trainee to each facility at a time, then restart the list over. Currently there is about 90 4,5 and 6's that fit this criteria. If OKC graduated 10 (terminal students) every two weeks, this would give each facility a new trainee every 2 months. If you consider a 50% failure rate in OJT, this would equate to 3 new CPC's per facility a year. These numbers are relatively conservative, as most classes are graduating more than 10, and most facilities have better sucess rates than 50%. This would allow 4,5 and 6's to release someone every ncept a year or so after this plan would be implemented.

To fix ncept, allow transfers only 3 levels higher than current facility on the first move to a level 7 or higher. As an example, a 4 could release to a 7, a 5 to 8 and a 6 to 9. After the first transfer above a 7, the CPC can transfer to any facility level they desire. If you cap moves at 3 levels for the first move, level 7, 8's and 9 would also get an influx of people and allow them to begin releasing people. On the second necpt move, the CPC can move from a 7 to a 9 if they wish. Another thing this would solve under this idea, is a CPC would not be able to go from a 4, to a 6 that is eligible for academy graduates then jump straight to a 12 because they did not break through that level 7 ceiling. Ncept also would not be based only on the receiving facilities percentage but would consider the CPC's time at the current facility. To allow a less senior CPC move to a facility before a senior CPC just because the less senior is willing to go to somewhere the senior is not willing to go is not fair. This forces senior CPC's to move to facilities they don't want to be at, or to stay at some shit low level facility for years.

Additionally, if a CPC wants to go to a lvl 4, 5 or 6, and is willing to sign a contract saying they will go to that facility and work for a set number of years after obtaining CPC at that facility, they will receive a priority transfer. Under this, the CPC will not be eligible to move for any circumstances, not even under a hardship. This will allow people who want to go to a low level facility for whatever personal reasons they have. Additionally this will put a senior individual in the tower so you have some experience individuals still working the lower levels.

After the plan is in place, you can identify any hard to staff level 7's, this would be evident by an extreme lack of ERR's to the facility. The only facility I can think of top of my head would be Fairbanks AK as a facility no one would want to ERR into, so leave them eligble for academy graduates as well.

This plan would admittedly stalemate ncept for probably a year, as the flow up of staff got through the lower level facilities into the higher levels but would cause an influx of movement within 2-3 years. This prevents people from going from a 4 to a 12, so trainees are more prepared for the higher levels because they have had obvious steps of progression through the facility levels. Imagine if right now, you could all but guarantee that within the next 12 months your facility would get a minimum of 3 cpc's, and be able to release 3 through ncept in the next calendar year. The issue isnt just lack of staff and hiring more, its how you utilize the staffing you have and its clear the FAA does not understand how to utilize staffing.

Is there anybody here know the chances of someone getting placed at a lower level tower from NEST after washing out from level 10 center w/o certs?

 

[Phanatical]

Is there anybody here know the chances of someone getting placed at a lower level tower from NEST after washing out from level 10 center w/o certs?

As long as they’ve completed the probationary period, yes.

 

[coultrain]

How about we let FSS Alaska CPCs to transfer to 7 and below towers to increase staffing there

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Is there anybody here know the chances of someone getting placed at a lower level tower from NEST after washing out from level 10 center w/o certs?

A lot of times in that case the person only gets Flight Service or Air Traffic Assistant. If you have a good relationship with your Rep have them call the NATCA guy in that list to preemptively fight for you. Once you go FSS or ATA there is no coming back. But if you go to a level four tower, you can certify and transfer out in a year sometimes.

How about we let FSS Alaska CPCs to transfer to 7 and below towers to increase staffing there

I think that’s a good idea but I think there are less then 100 FSS in Alaska total and they allegedly are often understaffed too.

 

[JulietXray97]

A lot of times in that case the person only gets Flight Service or Air Traffic Assistant. If you have a good relationship with your Rep have them call the NATCA guy in that list to preemptively fight for you. Once you go FSS or ATA there is no coming back. But if you go to a level four tower, you can certify and transfer out in a year sometimes.

I wouldn't say I have a terrible relationship with the FACREP but, I don't think they'll fight for me because they usually try and get people to stay at that facility. I, however, did submit a couple of letter of recommendations from my training team including my supervisor to be sent to NEST. Would that help?

 

[AB19]

I wouldn't say I have a terrible relationship with the FACREP but, I don't think they'll fight for me because they usually try and get people to stay at that facility. I, however, did submit a couple of letter of recommendations from my training team including my supervisor to be sent to NEST. Would that help?

It's joever