Fixing NCEPT/academy placement

[Golf delta]

3 level cap would be too restrictive and be too much training. I think a 4 level cap is fair. You can get anywhere in 2 moves, even from a level 4. 3 level cap would mean MDW can’t feed ORD. A major problem with NCEPT right now is the mid level, 8&9s that don’t get AGs get fucked because so many people are jumping right to 10/11/12s. 8s and 9s are perfect training grounds for working steady traffic and give everyone a taste of really where they’re at before jumping to a core airport.

 

[Soul_Controller]

They need to just let you apply to any open job like any other agency.

That would force them to have bids to actually fill the low staffed places. Bids with move money. Bids with a set amount of years then an automatic release/pick whatever you want.

I agree but I get why things are the way they are. ERRs put all the power in the agencies hands with way less red tape than bids. And the bargaining unit is perfectly willing to oblige.

 

[Dolan]

Make it facility seniority based, no nest for transfers just return to last facility (where you would be last in facility seniority

Been saying this since the start. You have to make it first in first out for it to be fair. People on these boards lose their fuckin minds when I say that though

 

[ajmezz]

Been saying this since the start. You have to make it first in first out for it to be fair. People on these boards lose their fuckin minds when I say that though

How does that work overall? Does everyone wait until the highest seniority person, who only has in for 1-2 fac's, gets selected or do you get to skip?

 

[3rdgen]

How does that work overall? Does everyone wait until the highest seniority person, who only has in for 1-2 fac's, gets selected or do you get to skip?

If the top can’t go to the facility, it goes to number 2, and so on and so on

 

[Mike Kilo]

Been saying this since the start. You have to make it first in first out for it to be fair. People on these boards lose their fuckin minds when I say that though

What if to seniority person is a major asshole and nobody wants to hire them? Gonna cock block everyone else for that?

 

[3rdgen]

What if to seniority person is a major asshole and nobody wants to hire them? Gonna cock block everyone else for that?

Then it would go to the next person in line

Been saying this since the start. You have to make it first in first out for it to be fair. People on these boards lose their fuckin minds when I say that though

Same, they could’ve taken it right out of the Rinaldi playbook at launch. “Our members want long term predictable transfers!”

 

[Acquired Taste]

What if the placement out of the academy sent trainees to level 4,5 and 6's that are under 90% staffed only. The logic here is if you are at 90% and not releasing, clearly your CPC staff is happy and does not want to leave, so why would we send trainees to that facility. Send 1 trainee to each facility at a time, then restart the list over. Currently there is about 90 4,5 and 6's that fit this criteria. If OKC graduated 10 (terminal students) every two weeks, this would give each facility a new trainee every 2 months. If you consider a 50% failure rate in OJT, this would equate to 3 new CPC's per facility a year. These numbers are relatively conservative, as most classes are graduating more than 10, and most facilities have better sucess rates than 50%. This would allow 4,5 and 6's to release someone every ncept a year or so after this plan would be implemented.

They currently already send 99% of the AGs to level 4-7 facilities that are staffed below 90%. That's the only way anyone can get high enough on the academy list to get AGs. It it purely based off of projected staffing and the top 15-20ish facilities are all staffed under 80% projected which is how they got up so high. Your math is pretty far off too. Graduating 10 every 2 weeks would take 18 weeks to produce 90 AGs, which is a 1 AG per facility every 4 months or so (in your example), not every 2 months. There's a lot of variables though, like some low level towers have targets of 7 or 9 CPCs and are revolving doors while some level 6 up downs have targets closer to 30 and longer training times.

After the plan is in place, you can identify any hard to staff level 7's, this would be evident by an extreme lack of ERR's to the facility. The only facility I can think of top of my head would be Fairbanks AK as a facility no one would want to ERR into, so leave them eligble for academy graduates as well.

Most people aren't going to ERR to a level 7 when they can usually go to a much higher level in the same location they want to be, but work with professional pilots instead of a bunch of ESL trainees trying to kill each other all day.

The 3 level cap you propose would also fuck the entire system and add unnecessary training time and relocation for all of lower level CPCs with the capacity and desire to work high level traffic. Ultimately, it would just getting bog down the system with everyone transferring, training, and immediately bidding out to get where they actually want to be.

 

[Spiralbox21]

They currently already send 99% of the AGs to level 4-7 facilities that are staffed below 90%. That's the only way anyone can get high enough on the academy list to get AGs. It it purely based off of projected staffing and the top 15-20ish facilities are all staffed under 80% projected which is how they got up so high. Your math is pretty far off too. Graduating 10 every 2 weeks would take 18 weeks to produce 90 AGs, which is a 1 AG per facility every 4 months or so (in your example), not every 2 months. There's a lot of variables though, like some low level towers have targets of 7 or 9 CPCs and are revolving doors while some level 6 up downs have targets closer to 30 and longer training times.

Most people aren't going to ERR to a level 7 when they can usually go to a much higher level in the same location they want to be, but work with professional pilots instead of a bunch of ESL trainees trying to kill each other all day.

The 3 level cap you propose would also fuck the entire system and add unnecessary training time and relocation for all of lower level CPCs with the capacity and desire to work high level traffic. Ultimately, it would just getting bog down the system with everyone transferring, training, and immediately bidding out to get where they actually want to be.

Literally. Why would i want to go to pdk when i could go to atl? Not a supporter of the cap.

 

[GMX]

I really don't know what the answer is but something needs to be done. Is seniority the key? It doesn't necessarily reflect skill, but what else can be used like it is for everything else???

My max rating is a lvl 8 up/down and I was a victim of 804. I tried to ncept out for several years but kept getting passed over even though I had years of experience and was actually good at controlling.

In the meantime I've seen noobs--after consolidation with lvl 4 tower only (who shouldn't have even been checked out but "reasons")--who didn't even have a year in for CIC qualification (they couldn't even work alone!) get selected for lvl 12 radar facilities and they've never even said the word "radar" in their life. Guess what? They washed in the labs and got sent back to their original tower which they shouldn't have certified on in the first place except for "reasons". What's next? Rewarded again by getting another ncept release within a year to a lvl 9 tower!

In the meantime, guys who have actually demonstrated several years of working some real traffic get denied the chance to go to other places and actually make a difference. Where's the merit and ability checks?

 

[Dolan]

How does that work overall? Does everyone wait until the highest seniority person, who only has in for 1-2 fac's, gets selected or do you get to skip?

Give first in priority on where they want to go, if they can't transfer because of the recieving facility it'd go to the next person

What if to seniority person is a major asshole and nobody wants to hire them? Gonna cock block everyone else for that?

Then they'll eat shit when they're training at their new facility. They're still a human being and their time should be respected. Also you're not the asshole police - and no one should get to be ATMs included. Maybe they're just that way because how hard the current system fucks them.

 

[cryhavoc478]

They currently already send 99% of the AGs to level 4-7 facilities that are staffed below 90%. That's the only way anyone can get high enough on the academy list to get AGs. It it purely based off of projected staffing and the top 15-20ish facilities are all staffed under 80% projected which is how they got up so high. Your math is pretty far off too. Graduating 10 every 2 weeks would take 18 weeks to produce 90 AGs, which is a 1 AG per facility every 4 months or so (in your example), not every 2 months. There's a lot of variables though, like some low level towers have targets of 7 or 9 CPCs and are revolving doors while some level 6 up downs have targets closer to 30 and longer training times.

Most people aren't going to ERR to a level 7 when they can usually go to a much higher level in the same location they want to be, but work with professional pilots instead of a bunch of ESL trainees trying to kill each other all day.

The 3 level cap you propose would also fuck the entire system and add unnecessary training time and relocation for all of lower level CPCs with the capacity and desire to work high level traffic. Ultimately, it would just getting bog down the system with everyone transferring, training, and immediately bidding out to get where they actually want to be.

I’m just glad someone wrote an actual response. I’m not saying my plan is perfect, I just know the average post on this forum is demanding change but suggesting no solution.

My thoughts with the level cap is it would essentially force people into the 7s, so they would actually receive ERRs.

 

[Tater_Toad]

If you get a TOL through NCEPT and decline it should be a 5 year ban.

 

[ajmezz]

Give first in priority on where they want to go, if they can't transfer because of the recieving facility it'd go to the next person

Then they'll eat shit when they're training at their new facility. They're still a human being and their time should be respected. Also you're not the asshole police - and no one should get to be ATMs included. Maybe they're just that way because how hard the current system fucks them.

And what’s your opinion when the most senior person puts in for fac’s high on the priority list but washes/turns them down?

 

[GulfCharlie]

And what’s your opinion when the most senior person puts in for fac’s high on the priority list but washes/turns them down?

Promoted straight to command center so when facilities in the NCR call the DEN in the morning they can say "hi."

 

[32andBelow]

If you get a TOL through NCEPT and decline it should be a 5 year ban.

I never understood under this season why they can’t just process some alternates to take the place of someone who turns down the TOL. Or do an alternates selection a week later

 

[ATC123]

I never understood under this season why they can’t just process some alternates to take the place of someone who turns down the TOL. Or do an alternates selection a week later

Because many don't reply to their TOL within a week, and if you have a 1year release date, you can always back out of the selection at week #51.

 

[Phillytroll69]

I've read through this thread and you all are missing a gigantic point. Rich sat in front of congress and told them we have a great transfer system.

I mean you can brainstorm on here all you want but unless you can get that changed.

How would you actually go about changing it?

Because we're fucking sick of training level 5 tower only people how to radar identify aircraft, vector, and PTAC at a level 12 when mid levels who already know how to do that can't release anyone. Ever.


Waste of everyone's time and half of them don't even intend on certifying. They're just jumping through hoops to get a fat NEST list and pay bump in the interim

Don't forget all the level 5-6 to 11-12 sups.
Don't forget all the level 5-6 to 10-12 tmus.
If you're willing to go the faa route you can leapfrog a bunch and we need to drop that. Literally never seen a radar scope before to running the area and supposedly getting currency on a sector now or something

 

[Soul_Controller]

I've read through this thread and you all are missing a gigantic point. Rich sat in front of congress and told them we have a great transfer system.

I mean you can brainstorm on here all you want but unless you can get that changed.

How would you actually go about changing it?

In the midst of everyone crying about staffing and six day work weeks, the "fix" to NCEPT would probably go the opposite direction (less transfers). So no, I don't think rich should have highlighted cpc problems with NCEPT while talking to congress

 

[32andBelow]

In the midst of everyone crying about staffing and six day work weeks, the "fix" to NCEPT would probably go the opposite direction (less transfers). So no, I don't think rich should have highlighted cpc problems with NCEPT while talking to congress

Everyone knows the way to fix staffing is to get everyone where they want to go. That’s why the placement is a big part of it