CRWG

[Bandit117]

In short, if you have the resources, then yes you should be doing it decombined. If my tax dollars are paying four controllers to sit in the break room while LC mishears a takeoff, landing, or hold short readback because they're managing multiple frequencies then I think thats a disservice to the public who pays your paycheck. I've been at facilities with multiple airplane crashes where a pilot had to key up and tell the controller what's happened. Part of that is just complacency - the "it's only one airplane" effect where people don't respect the job and think it's overkill to do basic job tasks like scan a runway. You seem to also lack respect for performing the bare minimum functions of the job. Sure as one person you can maintain the facade of a fully functioning facility, but you aren't truly accomplishing all agency goals single handedly on a regular basis. You're cutting corners. And I hope that nobody ends up getting hurt because of it.

Splitting out positions with no traffic is proven to be just as dangerous and prone to making errors as when it’s busy and you’re not split out. There needs to be a certain level of engagement to keep you sharp.

 

[Mike Kilo]

My facility now needs 17 CPCs to allow a transfer which hasn’t happened in at least a decade(probably two). I’ll be out of the FAA by the end of 2023, mark my words.

I bet you won’t!! Mark my words…. 😆

 

[OpenSkies]

In short, if you have the resources, then yes you should be doing it decombined. If my tax dollars are paying four controllers to sit in the break room while LC mishears a takeoff, landing, or hold short readback because they're managing multiple frequencies then I think thats a disservice to the public who pays your paycheck. I've been at facilities with multiple airplane crashes where a pilot had to key up and tell the controller what's happened. Part of that is just complacency - the "it's only one airplane" effect where people don't respect the job and think it's overkill to do basic job tasks like scan a runway. You seem to also lack respect for performing the bare minimum functions of the job. Sure as one person you can maintain the facade of a fully functioning facility, but you aren't truly accomplishing all agency goals single handedly on a regular basis. You're cutting corners. And I hope that nobody ends up getting hurt because of it.

If you’re afraid of working positions combined just bid a supe job it’s ok buddy

 

[boots]

My facility now needs 17 CPCs to allow a transfer which hasn’t happened in at least a decade(probably two). I’ll be out of the FAA by the end of 2023, mark my words.

🤣🤣

 

[Somenewguy]

Splitting out positions with no traffic is proven to be just as dangerous and prone to making errors as when it’s busy and you’re not split out. There needs to be a certain level of engagement to keep you sharp.

I didn't know this was proven. Did you have proof? If you're referring to the Yorkes-Dobson correlation of arousal to performance you're making a large leap in logic.

-You're assuming that working GC and LC combined with one airplane is increasing stimulation (stress) enough to increase performance. Which it probably isn't, especially if it is a normal situation and especially given the comments about it being just one airplane.
-You're also asking that the increase in performance is greater than any potential gain of having two people look at a situation for potential errors.
-You're also assuming that the level of stimulation (stress) provided by interacting with another coworker would not provide the same or greater level of performance.
-You're also ignoring obvious deficiencies with single person operations such as frequency management, tower cab or radar room layout (can you reach the phone or FDIO without walking across the room? How far does your headset stretch?), lack of tools to do your job more efficiently (LUAW), etc.

Yes, we all cut some corners sometimes for some reasons, but this should not be the standard daily practice. The standard exists for a reason, and even if you don't believe in the reason it's kind of what you're paid to do.

If you’re afraid of working positions combined just bid a supe job it’s ok buddy

A retarded monkey can do this job. I'm glad you have an ego boner from checking out at a facility after your second TRB.

 

[32andBelow]

Splitting out positions with no traffic is proven to be just as dangerous and prone to making errors as when it’s busy and you’re not split out. There needs to be a certain level of engagement to keep you sharp.

In the center when they make us split for TOP it’s so bad. Everyone is just talking and goofing off.

 

[Bandit117]

I didn't know this was proven. Did you have proof? If you're referring to the Yorkes-Dobson correlation of arousal to performance you're making a large leap in logic.

-You're assuming that working GC and LC combined with one airplane is increasing stimulation (stress) enough to increase performance. Which it probably isn't, especially if it is a normal situation and especially given the comments about it being just one airplane.
-You're also asking that the increase in performance is greater than any potential gain of having two people look at a situation for potential errors.
-You're also assuming that the level of stimulation (stress) provided by interacting with another coworker would not provide the same or greater level of performance.
-You're also ignoring obvious deficiencies with single person operations such as frequency management, tower cab or radar room layout (can you reach the phone or FDIO without walking across the room? How far does your headset stretch?), lack of tools to do your job more efficiently (LUAW), etc.

Yes, we all cut some corners sometimes for some reasons, but this should not be the standard daily practice. The standard exists for a reason, and even if you don't believe in the reason it's kind of what you're paid to do.


A retarded monkey can do this job. I'm glad you have an ego boner from checking out at a facility after your second TRB.

Yes, there’s proof. No, I’m not going to bother sharing it with a barely literate supervisor or worse, supervisor wannabe 🤣

People show up and they are doing their jobs. How they spend that time at work shouldn’t be dictated by anything other than safety and efficiency, in that order. TOP is a metric used only by middle management hacks to justify their deepthroat raise each year. And by ignorant executives who don’t know the first thing about aviation but think that running ATC is no different that running a potato chip factory.

Air traffic is not a product, it’s a service, but definitely not everyone can do it, that’s why the pass rates at the Academy are atrocious and the CPC rate of a new hires is approximately 50%.

If you split it out to give the false impression that people are working what you’re actually doing is taking away any opportunities for people to actually work real complex traffic, you’re lowering the skill level which means when shit pops off and people have to put on their big boy pants and do real deal air traffic controlling they won’t know how to do it because they’ve never done it before because everything was split off to the point where A teenager with a chat GPT app could make it work. Even if you have it split off there will be times where performance is necessary and by reducing the traffic controllers encounter on position you’re really just taking away their proficiency.

you must be the person that dropped a supervisor bid after 366 days of being certified at your level four tower to go to another level four tower near your home, and the FAA gave you a PowerPoint class that told you that you’re a leader And a superior person for being in management and you actually believe that.

 

[blarg]

Yes, it is known that not being busy enough is a risk factor. We even had a required series of CBIs (old ELMS for the newbies) to do many years ago about how it's important to try to keep yourself engaged enough when it's not busy, and that sector management should take that in to account as well.

 

[acutetriangles]

Props to “yes there’s proof, no you can’t see it.” Baller move.

 

[Railgeek]

Yes, it is known that not being busy enough is a risk factor. We even had a required series of CBIs (old ELMS for the newbies) to do many years ago about how it's important to try to keep yourself engaged enough when it's not busy, and that sector management should take that in to account as well.

Making and throwing paper airplanes on top of the radar console is a fun pastime of mine. Same with tossing pencils into the drop ceiling.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Making and throwing paper airplanes on top of the radar console is a fun pastime of mine. Same with tossing pencils into the drop ceiling.

I used to sing down the drop tube into the TRACON

 

[corn4ahead]

This is true. But am I the only one to question the logic of people who think we should split everything all day no matter what just to pump our numbers? How would the public react if they found out there are air traffic controllers in Cleveland sitting at empty sectors for 3 hours of TOP / day? One of the anti-labor tactics of the industrial revolution was to squash the integrity of jobs to the point that people could be quickly and effortlessly replaced. If you're a skilled, experienced worker you have leverage over your employer. If you are doing a job that has been so segmented and simplified that any of the 50,000 yearly applicants can do it you have no leverage. I understand that there are facilities where people are getting their ass kicked day in and day out but if we all start pulling Cleveland-esque bullshit I think it would eventually blow up in our face.

I mean I hear you. Cleveland BS is legit for area 1 and 8. Kinda like ISP at N90.

But the other 6 areas actually work a ton and Command center never cares to help a brother out.

 

[ChuckNovember]

I mean I hear you. Cleveland BS is legit for area 1 and 8. Kinda like ISP at N90.

But the other 6 areas actually work a ton and Command center never cares to help a brother out.

I’m not saying that you don’t work, but saying you need 5 more CPCs than ZTL which is consistently one of the busiest centers in the country is insane

 

[corn4ahead]

I’m not saying that you don’t work, but saying you need 5 more CPCs than ZTL which is consistently one of the busiest centers in the country is insane

How many areas is ZTL?

 

[Sir_Unable]

How many areas is ZTL?

7

 

[ChuckNovember]

How many areas is ZTL?

One less than ZOB IIRC but they also worked over a million more airplanes in the last 12 months

 

[corn4ahead]

One less than ZOB IIRC but they also worked over a million more airplanes in the last 12 months

Complexity matters. But ZTL def had the volume.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Complexity matters. But ZTL def had the volume.

Are you saying that Cleveland is more complex than ZTL 🤨

 

[Move78]

Complexity matters. But ZTL def had the volume.

Y’all ain’t even got the hot weather.

 

[Billybob]

TSA checkpoint travel numbers (current year versus prior year(s)/same weekday) | Transportation Security Administration

www.tsa.gov

Throughput is right around the same as 2019 yet we still have staffing triggers, retirements, etc. Feel like things are gonna get a lot worse