Holding Controllers Accountable

[PointSixty5stalker]

This Austin incident has weighed on my mind for the last couple days, especially after hearing about this controller’s past. At what point do you speak out about another controllers inabilities? I don’t want someone to put two planes together and say “well we knew that was going to happen eventually.” The blame is going to be shifted from the controller to their coworkers, the people that checked them out, the people that didn’t say anything when they knew it was unsafe to be working. The FAA managers are only worried about staffing numbers and not being berated about overtime from the district manager. We have created a culture where we are afraid of our trainees, afraid to wash people for fear they will turn on the area and report behavior that they failed to bring up until they were on the chopping block which leads to an extension of hours and an investigation into the area. So to break this down into 2 points.

1. Who do we report weak controllers to in hopes they are reassessed and hopefully pulled of the floor to a desk job upstairs?

2.I think it is time to hold trainers accountable. If you see them being lax in training, not having an extensive training report and pushing controllers through who don’t deserve it then you need to speak up.

I don’t want to be responsible for the deaths of 200 innocent people because I didn’t want to speak up. Create a record with management about these people and if something like this happens again it will hopefully shift the attention from controllers to management and hopefully there will a change in the culture of management.

PS: the moderators on this site are a bunch of pussies that hate any sort of discourse. Who cares if something gets a little off topic? We will find a way to come back around. Also I would like to thank you for keeping the site going for people like me that just want to bitch.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Management likely already knows. We’ve spoken up before and those people still get signed off because it an ass to fill a seat and an OT slot.

 

[acutetriangles]

Assuming there was at least one other person in the AUS tower, sounds like we need to amp up our CIC standards as well.

 

[Termine]

I don't have any big thoughts on the big topic, but I do have one small thought from a small facility.

The standard for checkout is "moderate traffic under general supervision." Not "100% perfect 100% of the time when working 120% traffic levels." So trainers recommend, and management checks out, based on that standard. The idea is that the new CPC will get seasoning time, scare themselves once or twice, and most importantly they will keep learning and developing their skills while they still have someone experienced providing general supervision behind them.

Problem is when you're at a small tower with one or maybe two supes. "Revolving door" facility with not a whole lot of combined seniority and limited CIC resources. Now the guy who checked out last month has a CIC waiver and is working the cab combined up, or is working GC + CIC while another new checkout works LC. Where did your "general supervision" go?

 

[StuckInABlackHole]

Also this “certify on the traffic you have” thing needs to go. Depending on when a trainee gets to their facility, and if that facility is a ‘seasonal’ one, that trainee may never see the heart of the busy traffic by the time they run out of hours (but will get certified anyways). Training teams have tried dragging their feet to try and catch some of the busy traffic with their trainee, but that doesn’t fly with management because of the daily hours requirement. We’re setting people up for failure, and we need to up our standards once again.

 

[skykid11]

This Austin incident has weighed on my mind for the last couple days, especially after hearing about this controller’s past. At what point do you speak out about another controllers inabilities? I don’t want someone to put two planes together and say “well we knew that was going to happen eventually.” The blame is going to be shifted from the controller to their coworkers, the people that checked them out, the people that didn’t say anything when they knew it was unsafe to be working. The FAA managers are only worried about staffing numbers and not being berated about overtime from the district manager. We have created a culture where we are afraid of our trainees, afraid to wash people for fear they will turn on the area and report behavior that they failed to bring up until they were on the chopping block which leads to an extension of hours and an investigation into the area. So to break this down into 2 points.

1. Who do we report weak controllers to in hopes they are reassessed and hopefully pulled of the floor to a desk job upstairs?

2.I think it is time to hold trainers accountable. If you see them being lax in training, not having an extensive training report and pushing controllers through who don’t deserve it then you need to speak up.

I don’t want to be responsible for the deaths of 200 innocent people because I didn’t want to speak up. Create a record with management about these people and if something like this happens again it will hopefully shift the attention from controllers to management and hopefully there will a change in the culture of management.

PS: the moderators on this site are a bunch of pussies that hate any sort of discourse. Who cares if something gets a little off topic? We will find a way to come back around. Also I would like to thank you for keeping the site going for people like me that just want to bitch.

The moderators probably just avoid dumb drama.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I don't have any big thoughts on the big topic, but I do have one small thought from a small facility.

The standard for checkout is "moderate traffic under general supervision." Not "100% perfect 100% of the time when working 120% traffic levels." So trainers recommend, and management checks out, based on that standard. The idea is that the new CPC will get seasoning time, scare themselves once or twice, and most importantly they will keep learning and developing their skills while they still have someone experienced providing general supervision behind them.

Problem is when you're at a small tower with one or maybe two supes. "Revolving door" facility with not a whole lot of combined seniority and limited CIC resources. Now the guy who checked out last month has a CIC waiver and is working the cab combined up, or is working GC + CIC while another new checkout works LC. Where did your "general supervision" go?

It’s still there. They’re just providing it, not receiving it

Also this “certify on the traffic you have” thing needs to go. Depending on when a trainee gets to their facility, and if that facility is a ‘seasonal’ one, that trainee may never see the heart of the busy traffic by the time they run out of hours (but will get certified anyways). Training teams have tried dragging their feet to try and catch some of the busy traffic with their trainee, but that doesn’t fly with management because of the daily hours requirement. We’re setting people up for failure, and we need to up our standards once again.

So what’s the suggestion? Wash anyone who doesn’t catch seasonal traffic?

 

[StuckInABlackHole]

So what’s the suggestion? Wash anyone who doesn’t catch seasonal traffic?

Do away with the daily hours requirement and let each facility decide how to use the total hours given based on their traffic.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Do away with the daily hours requirement and let each facility decide how to use the total hours given based on their traffic.

Then people would be complaining about how long their training is taking and extensive delays again. Especially at large facilities

 

[fivebyfive]

From the National Training Order::

An OJTI is an essential element of the Training Team and crucial to a trainee’s success. The OJTI’s function is one of teacher and coach. CPCs who certify as OJTIs are selected for their skills and abilities and are highly respected members of the workforce.

We've gotten to a point (at least in my tower experience) where almost everyone is an OJTI.
Based on the national training order, I don't think that was the intention.
I doubt you think all of your coworkers are highly skilled and respected.

This is another sinister result of being chronically understaffed.
Knowledge and skills are not passed down at a level they were intended because we're in such desperate need of bodies.

Is it also like this at Zs and standalone TRACONs?

 

[Phillytroll69]

This Austin incident has weighed on my mind for the last couple days, especially after hearing about this controller’s past. At what point do you speak out about another controllers inabilities? I don’t want someone to put two planes together and say “well we knew that was going to happen eventually.” The blame is going to be shifted from the controller to their coworkers, the people that checked them out, the people that didn’t say anything when they knew it was unsafe to be working. The FAA managers are only worried about staffing numbers and not being berated about overtime from the district manager. We have created a culture where we are afraid of our trainees, afraid to wash people for fear they will turn on the area and report behavior that they failed to bring up until they were on the chopping block which leads to an extension of hours and an investigation into the area. So to break this down into 2 points.

1. Who do we report weak controllers to in hopes they are reassessed and hopefully pulled of the floor to a desk job upstairs?

2.I think it is time to hold trainers accountable. If you see them being lax in training, not having an extensive training report and pushing controllers through who don’t deserve it then you need to speak up.

I don’t want to be responsible for the deaths of 200 innocent people because I didn’t want to speak up. Create a record with management about these people and if something like this happens again it will hopefully shift the attention from controllers to management and hopefully there will a change in the culture of management.

PS: the moderators on this site are a bunch of pussies that hate any sort of discourse. Who cares if something gets a little off topic? We will find a way to come back around. Also I would like to thank you for keeping the site going for people like me that just want to bitch.

I'll try and answer everything. First you are making a bold assumption, in this case nobody can be at fault for financial liability. Everyone sues everyone, engine manufacturer, baggage people, etc. IF the controller was clearly negligent-they could face jail time. The trainer might be blamed and gossipped about but would not be liable.

1-who do we report weak controllers too?
There's no such thing. That controller is responsible for protecting themselves. (For instance if he was to busy or weather was to bad, the individual can shut down the airport)

2-its the whole culture. Some don't care, some need all stars. That won't change. Lack of management oversight, and poor training of the trainers, and inconsistent training and staffing. I mean 20% of this can be fixed?

In terms of putting it on management, LOL. If you're that concerned that a trainee you (or someone else) checked out will have something happen AND that you'll get blamed, just file atsaps.

You aren't responsible, your job is to safely manage your area of jurisdiction-is it ground, clearance, final. THATS IT. If you want to be a positive force for change, run for facreps, training rep, email and ask for a meeting with the flm to voice your concerns.

(assuming your not just an idiot and you do care)

Let's not forget this quote 'PS: the moderators on this site are a bunch of pussies that hate any sort of discourse'

This pretty much points out that you just complain here, without offering to help, and I'm assuming you do the same at your facility

 

[Phillytroll69]

So what’s the suggestion? Wash anyone who doesn’t catch seasonal traffic?

I would say at this point raises are based on time, and can be earned early. Like between pandemics and shutdowns how can you justify a 5 year miss of the 1.6% raises. Hey we're gonna wait until summer and you don't receive journeyman status but you will be paid as such. I think that's a starting point for seasonal facilities as well as delayed facilities.

 

[Jake Sully]

From the National Training Order::


We've gotten to a point (at least in my tower experience) where almost everyone is an OJTI.
Based on the national training order, I don't think that was the intention.
I doubt you think all of your coworkers are highly skilled and respected.

This is another sinister result of being chronically understaffed.
Knowledge and skills are not passed down at a level they were intended because we're in such desperate need of bodies.

Is it also like this at Zs and standalone TRACONs?

This is huge. A majority of controllers are shitty instructors. Which is fine because they’re a controller not a teacher but then they shouldn’t be training. Good trainers make good controllers. Sure a few people maybe really can’t do this job but I don’t find that to be the real issue. And knowing book stuff also doesnt make a good controller.

 

[CaptainObvious]

This is huge. A majority of controllers are shitty instructors. Which is fine because they’re a controller not a teacher but then they shouldn’t be training. Good trainers make good controllers. Sure a few people maybe really can’t do this job but I don’t find that to be the real issue. And knowing book stuff also doesnt make a good controller.

Parroting for your trainees doesn’t either. You have to let them fuck up and try and fix it

 

[Jake Sully]

Parroting for your trainees doesn’t either. You have to let them fuck up and try and fix it

I only train that way in the first handful of hours.

 

[Ad1234]

The quality of ideas in this thread arr going to be as consistent as the quality of trainers in the field.


I also hate when people use the excuse that they are scared to say something because the person might use it against them. Be professional, know your fucking job and you’ll be fine. So what you are named in a lawsuit? Did you do anything wrong? Then you’ll be fine .

 

[Horno]

Everyone is talking about trainers, but what about trainees? It takes two people to make a quality controller…the trainer who trains for success and the trainee who wants to succeed. You need a trainer that’s tough but wants you to succeed and a trainee that’s dedicated and wants to succeed. A trainee who believes CPC status is earned not given. Unfortunately as much as there’s a lack of quality trainers, I think there’s a lack of quality trainees.

 

[Billybob]

IMO it sounds like a bunch of people did speak up if he was moving facilities so often and took that long to certify. At some point somebody in an upper-echelon position needs to sack up and say enough is enough, but this is the government so that’s probably never gonna happen.

 

[PointSixty5stalker]

Smitty response taken down…

Here is my reply


I understand where you are coming from but I don’t really understand the whole woke thing. What you fail to realize is that pushing people through because they are a minority discredits people who actually know how to do the job. I hate the thought of someone thinking I made it through training because of the color of my skin. Lowering standards for POC is the most racist shit out there. It essentially means because I am a minority I am too stupid to be held to the standard of whites so we need to expect less of him. I don’t believe that the government should have some sort of quota for a demographic. That would just make me a number on paper and at that point just go ahead and make us shave our heads and wear a star on our sleeve.

 

[Ad1234]

Everyone is talking about trainers, but what about trainees? It takes two people to make a quality controller…the trainer who trains for success and the trainee who wants to succeed. You need a trainer that’s tough but wants you to succeed and a trainee that’s dedicated and wants to succeed. A trainee who believes CPC status is earned not given. Unfortunately as much as there’s a lack of quality trainers, I think there’s a lack of quality trainees.

the quality of trainee is fixable only by the quality of the trainer as both an educator and an employee. if the trainers knows how to control, teach, and document according to the order the trainee goes bye bye. end of story. bitch about the quality of trainee all you want but if the first gate keeper, the trainer allows them to pass....what's management gonna say? hell if management says anything a vast majority of the workers bitch about it, trainees see this and don't respect them right out the gate, no wonder they feel they are being railroaded, they see the reaction around them. I'm not excusing management but in this one area, we make their position harder just because we don't want too be hassled or appear to support them.

look at that one reddit post recently, the trainer is scared to say how the guy cant give traffic calls at 150/170 hours and the trainer of the day doesn't fucking know what to do. imagine the supe then certifies him, well the trainers said okay. or imagine if he doesnt because he fucks up his check ride, the trainers will say hes fine I said hes fine why didt you certify, imagine if the supe then says his documented performance doesn't justify a certification, the trainers would go nuts. there is alot of bullshit trainers do that cause so many problems.