IFR Arr/Dep to intesecting runways

Juliet Victor

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Places with intersecting runways when you have an arrival to one and a departure from the other both ifr when would be the latest you would launch the departure? I've heard of a couple of places making the controllers apply 3 miles between the arrival and the intersection. That doesn't seem right and I can't find that.
 
According to 5-8-4, "Except as provided in paragraph 5−8−5, Departures and Arrivals on Parallel or Nonintersecting Diverging Runways, separate a departing aircraft from an arriving aircraft on final approach by a minimum of 2 miles if separation will increase to a minimum of 3 miles (5 miles when 40 miles or more from the antenna) within 1 minute after takeoff."

This would be your bare minimums for intersecting runway departures and arrivals. Visual could further reduce this but even then you'd need separation before applying it and after.
 
edit: I misunderstood the question.

Yeah... 2 increasing to 3 after 1 (5-8-4) is correct. Therefore, a minimum of 2 miles is required at the time the departure commence takeoff roll providing the rest of the requirements are also met.
 
I think if I'm understanding the scenario correctly, you would just need to launch the departure so that they are through the intersection before the arrival crosses the landing threshold. No separating with mileage from the intersection. Just make sure in the event of a go-around you have divergence and you're good.

 
I think if I'm understanding the scenario correctly, you would just need to launch the departure so that they are through the intersection before the arrival crosses the landing threshold. No separating with mileage from the intersection. Just make sure in the event of a go-around you have divergence and you're good.

This is what I had initially answered as well, but since both are IFR, you would need to provide standard IFR separation once the departure is airborne.
 
I think you’re confusing IFR and IMC. Even in IMC you can use tower applied visual as long as you have standard separation before and after
No, but I may have been able to word it better. My implication was if tower applied visual could not be applied due to IMC (should’ve been written as IMC instead of IFR).
 
Places with intersecting runways when you have an arrival to one and a departure from the other both ifr when would be the latest you would launch the departure? I've heard of a couple of places making the controllers apply 3 miles between the arrival and the intersection. That doesn't seem right and I can't find that.
What you’re referring to isn’t a radar rule or something you’ll find in a national order, it’s a local rule for maintaining intersection separation. We have a 3-mile rule for one of our configurations because the intersecting runway is 10,000 feet downfield and we’ve had some really close calls at the intersection between arrivals and departures. Basically if the arrival is outside a 3-mile final you’re good to roll the departure and will almost always get separation at the intersection
 
As long as you launch in LUAW or immediates with pilots who play nice and are just using TA visual with no other local rule, about 1.5 miles is as close as I would push it with two jets.
 
The aircraft simply needs to be though the intersection. 2 increasing to 3 is not for intersecting runways. You have to use your judgement of a/c types and how for down the intersection is to decide. Any local directive is probably a product of someone fucking up.
 
Are we assuming tower visual is not available? If that’s the case it’s a good question. I think 2 increasing to 3 measured from the intersection instead of start of takeoff roll makes sense but that paragraph doesn’t cover intersection departures. Maybe it is 3 miles.
 
This is a trickier question than I thought at first.

If they were both departures, and assuming the intersecting runways diverge by at least 15º, the answer would be obvious: All you need is "through the intersection," reference 5-8-3d2. And if the two runways were non-intersecting you would have no minimum separation and could launch the departure even with the arrival on short final, reference 5-8-5c. But in this situation neither of those apply.

you would need to provide standard IFR separation once the departure is airborne.
If the runways diverge by at least 15º, you are allowed (5-5-1b2) to use passing-or-diverging (5-5-7a1(a)), which means you have separation as soon as the departure crosses the intersection. Just make sure not to give a boneheaded vector to the departure.

The problem is: What separation are you using if the departure rotates before the intersection, assuming tower visual isn't an option? And even if tower visual is an option, what separation are you providing before the application of tower visual? 3-10-4a1 is well and good for VFR, but the segment of time we're concerned about is that time between when the departure rotates and when they get through the intersection. I could see an argument for applying 3-10-4 prior to applying tower visual, sort of, but it doesn't make me very comfortable.

(I also almost made the argument that the wording in 5-8-4 implies you need to provide IFR separation even before the departure rotates, but then I realized that 5-8-4 is nothing but a waiver allowing you to drop below 3 miles of airborne separation. The "separate by 2 miles" thing is just that the condition for that waiver.)

The problem with trying to use 5-8-4 is the Note, which reads:
This procedure permits a departing aircraft to be released so long as an arriving aircraft is no closer than 2  miles from the runway at the time. This separation is determined at the time the departing aircraft commences takeoff roll.
Now what does "the runway" refer to? The simplest explanation is that it refers to the single runway that is being used by both aircraft, which would mean this rule cannot be applied between two aircraft on two different runways. But you could sort of squint your eyes and pretend that it refers to the arrival's runway, and I can see that making sense. In this interpretation you would be allowed to launch the departure so long as the arrival is no closer than a 2-mile final.
But that's just the Note, not the paragraph itself. The paragraph doesn't mention a runway—it just says "separate... by a minimum of 2 miles," which you could interpret as the straight-line distance between the two aircraft at the time the departure starts rolling. Depending on the layout of the airport you might have that even when the arrival is over the numbers, so that's probably a poor interpretation.

So in the final analysis, and without considering the complication of tower visual, I offer two possible interpretations:
  1. Squint your eyes and apply 5-8-4. The departure has to be rolling by the time the arrival reaches a 2-mile final.
  2. Apply standard 3 miles. You need to have 3 miles between the two aircraft from the moment the departure rotates until the departure crosses the intersection.
That second option would be even more separation that you implied in your question: Not only 3 miles between the arrival and the intersection when you launch the departure, but 3 miles between the arrival and the departure at all times, meaning you would need the departure to be rolling before the arrival was on a 4-5 mile final, depending on speeds.
 
The problem is: What separation are you using if the departure rotates before the intersection, assuming tower visual isn't an option? And even if tower visual is an option, what separation are you providing before the application of tower visual? 3-10-4a1 is well and good for VFR, but the segment of time we're concerned about is that time between when the departure rotates and when they get through the intersection. I could see an argument for applying 3-10-4 prior to applying tower visual, sort of, but it doesn't make me very comfortable.
The arrival had to be at least 3 miles from the airport at some point so you can say standard IFR separation was used prior to visual. All of our intersecting ops have ceiling and visibility requirements that allow us to use tower visual at all times but what would happen if there was a scattered layer on say 2.5 mile final that disappeared the plane for a bit and you were launching someone off a runway where they rotate before the intersection. If that arrival is still in the clouds and gets within 3 miles of the departure before the departure crosses the intersection is that a deal? I can’t find a way to justify why it wouldn’t
 
The arrival had to be at least 3 miles from the airport at some point so you can say standard IFR separation was used prior to visual
Yeah, that makes sense I suppose, you can point back to 5-5-1b2 to justify that. PS, to go off on a little bit of a tangent, I don't suppose you can use "I had visual" as a defense against a loss of runway separation? I assume not, but why not? If it was two departures for example, they were separated on the taxiway and they'll be separated in the air, right?

If that arrival is still in the clouds and gets within 3 miles of the departure before the departure crosses the intersection is that a deal?
Not 3 miles from the intersection but 3 miles from the other aircraft (essentially same difference here, but to be precise). I would agree, I think it would be a deal, unless you can successfully argue that you can apply 2-increasing-to-3. Which, now that I think about it, if the distance is measured at the time the departure starts rolling, shouldn't the time be measured starting at that point too? So that's one more argument against applying 2-to-3-in-1 across two separate runways, because for a non-insignificant amount of that one short minute the aircraft will be moving closer and closer toward each other.
 
Yeah, that makes sense I suppose, you can point back to 5-5-1b2 to justify that. PS, to go off on a little bit of a tangent, I don't suppose you can use "I had visual" as a defense against a loss of runway separation? I assume not, but why not? If it was two departures for example, they were separated on the taxiway and they'll be separated in the air, right?
I am 100% using that justification the next time I roll two too close. I was using approved separation of not trading paint on the taxiways, 1500 and airborne it is.
Not 3 miles from the intersection but 3 miles from the other aircraft (essentially same difference here, but to be precise). I would agree, I think it would be a deal, unless you can successfully argue that you can apply 2-increasing-to-3. Which, now that I think about it, if the distance is measured at the time the departure starts rolling, shouldn't the time be measured starting at that point too? So that's one more argument against applying 2-to-3-in-1 across two separate runways, because for a non-insignificant amount of that one short minute the aircraft will be moving closer and closer toward each other.
Two-increasing-to-three only applies to arrivals and departures on the same runway and parallel runways separated by less than 2500 feet. For intersecting runways once the arrival or departure crosses the intersection you have guaranteed course divergence of at least 15 degrees if the arrival goes around. Even if you somehow could use two-increasing-to-three it would become moot once that happens
 
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