Intersecting RWY separation

ssrlw

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Scenario: Aircraft 1 landing with Aircraft 2 in position on intersecting RWY. LAHSO not authorized.

Aircraft 1 lands and slow to taxi speed. Instructed to turn off on taxiway prior to intersecting RWY. Aircraft 1 acknowledges instruction and verbally commits to exiting at taxiway prior to intersecting RWY.

Can Aircraft 2 depart before Aircraft 1 is exited their landing RWY.

7110 stated the aircraft 1 may be instructed to hold short of intersecting RWY. Also states an aircraft may cross a RWY that an aircraft has landed on once verbal commitment is received that landing aircraft will exit prior to crossing point.

Is the scenario above legal?
 

CaptainObvious

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579
Scenario: Aircraft 1 landing with Aircraft 2 in position on intersecting RWY. LAHSO not authorized.

Aircraft 1 lands and slow to taxi speed. Instructed to turn off on taxiway prior to intersecting RWY. Aircraft 1 acknowledges instruction and verbally commits to exiting at taxiway prior to intersecting RWY.

Can Aircraft 2 depart before Aircraft 1 is exited their landing RWY.

7110 stated the aircraft 1 may be instructed to hold short of intersecting RWY. Also states an aircraft may cross a RWY that an aircraft has landed on once verbal commitment is received that landing aircraft will exit prior to crossing point.

Is the scenario above legal?
I’ve done it before. Once the aircraft touched down and had slowed it was considered a taxiing aircraft and instructed to hold short of the intersecting runway
 

Stinger

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971
Scenario: Aircraft 1 landing with Aircraft 2 in position on intersecting RWY. LAHSO not authorized.

Aircraft 1 lands and slow to taxi speed. Instructed to turn off on taxiway prior to intersecting RWY. Aircraft 1 acknowledges instruction and verbally commits to exiting at taxiway prior to intersecting RWY.

Can Aircraft 2 depart before Aircraft 1 is exited their landing RWY.

7110 stated the aircraft 1 may be instructed to hold short of intersecting RWY. Also states an aircraft may cross a RWY that an aircraft has landed on once verbal commitment is received that landing aircraft will exit prior to crossing point.

Is the scenario above legal?
It's totally safe and makes sense issuing a runway exit, getting the readback, and clearing someone for takeoff on the intersecting runway.
However, the FAA position is that's not good enough. You need to get a readback of some hold short point. That could be the intersecting runway or some taxiway prior to the intersection. Either one works.

And yes, getting a readback of the aircraft exiting, and then crossing that same runway downfield with a taxiing aircraft is also legal.
 

ssrlw

Lurker
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10
Yes but not telling them to hold short intersecting and instructing then to turn off prior to intersecting is the question. One would think, common sense, if they are legal to hold short, then turning off prior to intersecting should be legal.
 

Foogy

Trusted Contributor
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223
All day, get a good exit readback and let the departure know traffic will exit prior to their runway. The hold short is more subjective, it's a good judgement call, our intersecting doesnt have hold markings with the two other intersecting. So there isn't a reliable way to ensure the pilot will stop prior to it hence exiting instead.
 

ssrlw

Lurker
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All day, get a good exit readback and let the departure know traffic will exit prior to their runway. The hold short is more subjective, it's a good judgement call, our intersecting doesnt have hold markings with the two other intersecting. So there isn't a reliable way to ensure the pilot will stop prior to it hence exiting instead.
Good point. Much safer to turn before for obvious reasons but also because there aren’t hold short markings on RWY.
 

Stinger

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971
Good point. Much safer to turn before for obvious reasons but also because there aren’t hold short markings on RWY.
There isn't hold short markings where taxiways intersect each other either. We issue hold shorts of those all the time.
 

Josephml21

Trusted Contributor
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143
It's totally safe and makes sense issuing a runway exit, getting the readback, and clearing someone for takeoff on the intersecting runway.
However, the FAA position is that's not good enough. You need to get a readback of some hold short point. That could be the intersecting runway or some taxiway prior to the intersection. Either one works.

And yes, getting a readback of the aircraft exiting, and then crossing that same runway downfield with a taxiing aircraft is also legal.
I'm confused, I issue exiting instructions and tell the guy to cnct ground. He reads them back, ground is going to taxi that guy to the ramp.... Why do I need to hold him short?

You do what you career can handle. The lander can be on the runway at taxi speed WITHOUT exiting instructions and you're still good to rip the departure off. Is it a good practice? Probably not, hell it's probably not even efficient, if a lander is at taxi speed on a runway and I haven't issued exiting instructions something is wrong.
 

Stinger

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971
I'm confused, I issue exiting instructions and tell the guy to cnct ground. He reads them back, ground is going to taxi that guy to the ramp.... Why do I need to hold him short?
Because if you're going to clear an aircraft for takeoff from an intersecting runway, the aircraft that landed needs to be told that he'll hold short of something prior to the departure starting takeoff roll. I agree that it's excessive...but that's how the FAA is wanting it accomplished.
The lander can be on the runway at taxi speed WITHOUT exiting instructions and you're still good to rip the departure off. Is it a good practice?
So no hold short given and no exiting instructions given? Not only is that not a good practice, that is most certainly not legal in any application and is 100% a separation error.
 

Foogy

Trusted Contributor
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Comparing hold shorts for a runway vs a taxiway is a bit of a stretch when an operation is going on. So far as the arrival is on that runway it is theirs, until they readback the exiting instruction, at which point it is presumed he will exit and contact ground for taxi at the point instructed. Then the departure is cleared, and at that point the departing runway in full length is theirs, it's more about who owns the real estate at the time.

Also I may be wrong but the hold short i believe is only required if it's considered a LAHSO operation, then it's an FAA issue. We aren't LAHSO approved hence the exiting without a holdshort.
 

Josephml21

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143
So no hold short given and no exiting instructions given? Not only is that not a good practice, that is most certainly not legal in any application and is 100% a separation error.
I know.... I've seen it. Not a fan and again I don't see the point, just issue the exiting instructions.

I've always just issued the instructions, get the read back and keep truckin. Life is good.
 

ssrlw

Lurker
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10
Please read scenario.. the real question is if it’s ok to hold short of intersecting RWY why isn’t it ok to get aircraft1 to commit to exit prior to hold short point.

Also, if you can cross with a “taxi” aircraft when one is on landing roll as long as they commit to turning off prior, why can’t you roll if lander commits to exiting prior to intersecting.
 

Josephml21

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143
Please read scenario.. the real question is if it’s ok to hold short of intersecting RWY why isn’t it ok to get aircraft1 to commit to exit prior to hold short point.

Also, if you can cross with a “taxi” aircraft when one is on landing roll as long as they commit to turning off prior, why can’t you roll if lander commits to exiting prior to intersecting.
Because LAHSO is real and land and exit prior to isn't...

An aircraft crossing a runway is totally different. Shit hits the fan LC says go around... Shit hits the fan on land and exit prior to either the lander blasts through the intersection or the departure has to abort and slam on the brakes. That's a ton of risk introduced to the system for not much in return.
 

Stinger

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971
the real question is if it’s ok to hold short of intersecting RWY why isn’t it ok to get aircraft1 to commit to exit prior to hold short point.
FAA has taken the stance that since the rule says "will hold short" the aircraft must be given a hold short instruction.
3-9-8 b2
2. A preceding arriving aircraft is clear of the landing runway, completed the landing roll and will hold short of the intersection, or has passed the intersection.
The first part "is clear of the landing runway" occurs when the aircraft has started the turn off the runway. Getting a readback that the aircraft will exit, has not committed the aircraft to exiting.

Your questions about "why can't you" are answered by "the FAA says so."
 

ssrlw

Lurker
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10
Basically a management **** is saying 7110 says aircraft 1 should have been told to either hold short intersecting or wait until clear of landing rwy. (Which is what 7110 implies for simple management brains)

However common sense says if they can either:
  1. hold short after landing, they can certainly exit prior to...
  2. if taxi aircraft can cross rwy after verbal commitment from lander of their exit point, you should be able to depart if aircraft 1 commits to turning prior to intersecting.
 

ssrlw

Lurker
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10
FAA has taken the stance that since the rule says "will hold short" the aircraft must be given a hold short instruction.
3-9-8 b2


The first part "is clear of the landing runway" occurs when the aircraft has started the turn off the runway. Getting a readback that the aircraft will exit, has not committed the aircraft to exiting.

Your questions about "why can't you" are answered by "the FAA says so."
I agree you are prob correct in FAA mind. Unfortunately common scene won’t win here. Not trying to get creative with rules but I think that in simple minds, I’m prob wrong.
 

Foogy

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223
Though we are talking about an aircraft exiting while already slowed to taxi speed with reasonable assumption that they will exit at the point issued and readback. Not LAHSO.
 

ssrlw

Lurker
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Though we are talking about an aircraft exiting while already slowed to taxi speed with reasonable assumption that they will exit at the point issued and readback. Not LAHSO.
We are. Aircraft 1 is slowed to taxi speed for 3000ft at least.
 
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