Intersecting RWY separation

DL0509

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There was a R&I that came out last year that said if the taxiway is prior to the RWY intersection you must wait til the aircraft is committed to turning on the taxiway before you can launch aircraft 2. IDK how that plays if you get a hold short but I'm pretty sure that was guidance that came out last year could be wrong tho.
 

mrobs15

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My understanding has always been that you don't have what you need unless you get a hold short read back from a pilot. It doesn't matter if its a runway or a taxiway that is prior to that runway but you need something. Telling the pilot to turn before the runway and getting that read back isn't enough and if you are doing it that way then you need to have them committed in the turn before letting the other departure go.

I always thought it was weird that getting them to say they will turn isn't as good as a hold short but idk maybe I'm wrong there.
 

Stinger

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My understanding has always been that you don't have what you need unless you get a hold short read back from a pilot. It doesn't matter if its a runway or a taxiway that is prior to that runway but you need something. Telling the pilot to turn before the runway and getting that read back isn't enough and if you are doing it that way then you need to have them committed in the turn before letting the other departure go.

I always thought it was weird that getting them to say they will turn isn't as good as a hold short but idk maybe I'm wrong there.
You understand it correctly.
Runway incursions and surface events are always at the top of the FAAs concerns. They've taken that section of the 7110's wording extremely literally, and haven't wiggled on it.
 

KnockKnock

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There isn't hold short markings where taxiways intersect each other either. We issue hold shorts of those all the time.
The .65 definition of clear runway covers this. Basically, if you can see them short, they're short.
 

TimShady

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There was an elms at some point coving this exact scenario with a real life situation that happened, but I can’t remember specifics. As others have said you need either a hold short instruction, which can’t be given until aircraft has completed landing roll or the aircraft commits to exiting (starts turning off). Reading back where to exit isn’t good enough.

At my place at least it’s not uncommon to tell a pilot where to exit and they read it back and roll right past it anyway, at what looks to me like taxi speed. If a pilot isn’t familiar they may read back the exiting instructions while still looking for the exit you gave and miss it. If this happens while another aircraft is rolling down an intersecting runway you have a real problem, while an aircraft taxiing across downfield is much less of a safety issue as either one or the other could stop.
 

GMX

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I make sure they read back hold short of the crossing runway and exit at some taxiway even if it thousands of feet from the other runway. I want that hold short of the other runway on tape with no room for questions.
 

ssrlw

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There was an elms at some point coving this exact scenario with a real life situation that happened, but I can’t remember specifics. As others have said you need either a hold short instruction, which can’t be given until aircraft has completed landing roll or the aircraft commits to exiting (starts turning off). Reading back where to exit isn’t good enough.

At my place at least it’s not uncommon to tell a pilot where to exit and they read it back and roll right past it anyway, at what looks to me like taxi speed. If a pilot isn’t familiar they may read back the exiting instructions while still looking for the exit you gave and miss it. If this happens while another aircraft is rolling down an intersecting runway you have a real problem, while an aircraft taxiing across downfield is much less of a safety issue as either one or the other could stop.
While I agree with what you’ve said, its ridiculous to say it’s safer to hold short an active runway, where there aren’t hold markings for, then to tell an aircraft at taxi speed to turn well prior to. If and Aircraft is going to roll past where you’ve told them to turn, and the acknowle/commit, they’re equally as likely to roll through where you’ve told them to stop.
 

MJ

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This was clarified in the recent change.

2. A preceding arriving aircraft (See FIG 3−9−10):
(a) Is clear of the landing runway, or
(b) Has completed the landing roll on the runway and will hold short of the intersection, or
(c) Has completed the landing roll and is observed turning at an exit point prior to the intersection, or
(d) Has passed the intersection.
 

X-Ray Lima

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Scenario: Aircraft 1 landing with Aircraft 2 in position on intersecting RWY. LAHSO not authorized.

Aircraft 1 lands and slow to taxi speed. Instructed to turn off on taxiway prior to intersecting RWY. Aircraft 1 acknowledges instruction and verbally commits to exiting at taxiway prior to intersecting RWY.

Can Aircraft 2 depart before Aircraft 1 is exited their landing RWY.

7110 stated the aircraft 1 may be instructed to hold short of intersecting RWY. Also states an aircraft may cross a RWY that an aircraft has landed on once verbal commitment is received that landing aircraft will exit prior to crossing point.

Is the scenario above legal?
Change 3 in the .65 just update this rule. You must visually see the A/C in their turn. Verbal commitment is not a thing
 

ssrlw

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Change 3 in the .65 just update this rule. You must visually see the A/C in their turn. Verbal commitment is not a thing
Agreeded. Still short of common sense (verbal commitment to hold short of intersecting RWY is ok but not prior to...) howvever a movement in the right direction.

And in my situation, the aircraft did complete landing roll and did see the aircraft “start” their turn. (Define that from a mile away at 200ft agl...)

Granted, I guess this changed days after the situation lol..
 

X-Ray Lima

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I ge

Agreeded. Still short of common sense (verbal commitment to hold short of intersecting RWY is ok but not prior to...) howvever a movement in the right direction.

And in my situation, the aircraft did complete landing roll and did see the aircraft “start” their turn. (Define that from a mile away at 200ft agl...)

Granted, I guess this changed days after the situation lol..
Once the A/C comes to a rollout, you can also say holdshort of the intersecting RWY.

Once the A/C comes to a rollout, you can also say holdshort of the intersecting RWY.
I ge

Agreeded. Still short of common sense (verbal commitment to hold short of intersecting RWY is ok but not prior to...) howvever a movement in the right direction.

And in my situation, the aircraft did complete landing roll and did see the aircraft “start” their turn. (Define that from a mile away at 200ft agl...)

Granted, I guess this changed days after the situation lol..
3/1/19 was the effective day.
 
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