NATCA asleep at the wheel again….

[Phillytroll69]

I’d be mad too if I had to pay 45% income tax

I mean add on your insurance premiums, student loans, social security, fers and i think im there already

 

[Nothanks]

I mean add on your insurance premiums, student loans, social security, fers and i think im there already

Healthcare isn’t entirely free there either, have to do your own research on that, it’s convoluted. But not a big deal either way

Fers- French have a pension system and the pension portion comes from their social security tax with is between 20-23% of their salary. We pay half of that if you were hired after 2014. Annnd they can’t retire early.

Then add in 41-45% income tax on top.

 

[32andBelow]

Which ones are perfectly fine ?

ZAN is in good shape. They’re also spending hella money to install ERAM at ZAN and HCF rn

At the end of the day most people don’t want to move to some random place so it’s gonna be like Reagan 2.0

 

[Phillytroll69]

Healthcare isn’t entirely free there either, have to do your own research on that, it’s convoluted. But not a big deal either way

Fers- French have a pension system and the pension portion comes from their social security tax with is between 20-23% of their salary. We pay half of that if you were hired after 2014. Annnd they can’t retire early.

Then add in 41-45% income tax on top.

Ah I thought that was included changes the math a little

 

[Nothanks]

ZAN is in good shape. They’re also spending hella money to install ERAM at ZAN and HCF rn

At the end of the day most people don’t want to move to some random place so it’s gonna be like Reagan 2.0

And those places probably all stay put too.

So go on

 

[Bandit117]

ZAN is in good shape. They’re also spending hella money to install ERAM at ZAN and HCF rn

At the end of the day most people don’t want to move to some random place so it’s gonna be like Reagan 2.0

I don’t see controllers quitting over it. They will complain but they will comply. Some will welcome it. Getting out of ZNY, ZOA, ZME etc? It’s a godsend for most,

There’s good reasons ZAN will stay put, I don’t see those reasons applying to say, not consolidating ZAU and ZMP or ZDV and ZLC.

They should have maintained the centers better. They did not. There are not willing to spend all the money to build a new center on a 1 for 1 basis so you will end up with consolidation.

it’s just objective reality. I don’t see anyone, R or D shelling out say 10B to replace every center. It just won’t happen.

 

[32andBelow]

I don’t see controllers quitting over it. They will complain but they will comply. Some will welcome it. Getting out of ZNY, ZOA, ZME etc? It’s a godsend for most,

There’s good reasons ZAN will stay put, I don’t see those reasons applying to say, not consolidating ZAU and ZMP or ZDV and ZLC.

They should have maintained the centers better. They did not. There are not willing to spend all the money to build a new center on a 1 for 1 basis so you will end up with consolidation.

it’s just objective reality. I don’t see anyone, R or D shelling out say 10B to replace every center. It just won’t happen.

You also can count on whoever does it using and logic. It’s just a spreadsheet where they move numbers around to them.

 

[Mjbatc93]

I can't wait for January. My paperwork is ready..

 

[Bandit117]

You also can count on whoever does it using and logic. It’s just a spreadsheet where they move numbers around to them.

True, but they aren’t going to replace centers or tracons on a 1 for 1 basis. I would argue it’s too expensive.

Sure, it might cost a lot of money to pay off people to relocate, but that’s a one time cost. The day a new center goes active all the new people go to the new place and they don’t get shit lol.

There’s a more than a few Zs that would make natural pairs. ZLA and ZOA. ZMP, ZKC and ZAU. ZOB and ZID. ZDV and ZLC, add in ZBQ and ZSE and it’s now Rocky Mountain center (lol still probably only a level 10). ZTL and ZME, ZNY and ZBW, ZHU and ZFW, ZJX and ZMA (ZSU too). ZDC could fit somewhere too, maybe with ZNY and ZBW.

So that’s what, 7 or 8 conus super centers, plus ZAN, ZUA, and HCF for a total of 10 or 11. Literally cutting the number in half. That’s an insane cost savings over the long term. It does mean somewhat less jobs in the future but it’s a moot point considering how many jobs they already can’t fill right now.

Right or wrong, it’s coming like a freight train and the union couldn’t stop it even if it wanted to. The only real hurdles are technical execution - we saw how PHL cocked up the EWR feed. That might give the FAA pause before trying a massive consolidation again on an even bigger scale and with greater stakes but I highly doubt it.

 

[32andBelow]

True, but they aren’t going to replace centers or tracons on a 1 for 1 basis. I would argue it’s too expensive.

Sure, it might cost a lot of money to pay off people to relocate, but that’s a one time cost. The day a new center goes active all the new people go to the new place and they don’t get shit lol.

There’s a more than a few Zs that would make natural pairs. ZLA and ZOA. ZMP, ZKC and ZAU. ZOB and ZID. ZDV and ZLC, add in ZBQ and ZSE and it’s now Rocky Mountain center (lol still probably only a level 10). ZTL and ZME, ZNY and ZBW, ZHU and ZFW, ZJX and ZMA (ZSU too). ZDC could fit somewhere too, maybe with ZNY and ZBW.

So that’s what, 7 or 8 conus super centers, plus ZAN, ZUA, and HCF for a total of 10 or 11. Literally cutting the number in half. That’s an insane cost savings over the long term. It does mean somewhat less jobs in the future but it’s a moot point considering how many jobs they already can’t fill right now.

Right or wrong, it’s coming like a freight train and the union couldn’t stop it even if it wanted to. The only real hurdles are technical execution - we saw how PHL cocked up the EWR feed. That might give the FAA pause before trying a massive consolidation again on an even bigger scale and with greater stakes but I highly doubt it.

Saying ZLA and ZOA are natural pairs just proves this is dumb. Living in the high desert or the Bay Area couldn’t be further apart in lifestyle geography and just about everything else.

 

[Nothanks]

True, but they aren’t going to replace centers or tracons on a 1 for 1 basis. I would argue it’s too expensive.

Sure, it might cost a lot of money to pay off people to relocate, but that’s a one time cost. The day a new center goes active all the new people go to the new place and they don’t get shit lol.

There’s a more than a few Zs that would make natural pairs. ZLA and ZOA. ZMP, ZKC and ZAU. ZOB and ZID. ZDV and ZLC, add in ZBQ and ZSE and it’s now Rocky Mountain center (lol still probably only a level 10). ZTL and ZME, ZNY and ZBW, ZHU and ZFW, ZJX and ZMA (ZSU too). ZDC could fit somewhere too, maybe with ZNY and ZBW.

So that’s what, 7 or 8 conus super centers, plus ZAN, ZUA, and HCF for a total of 10 or 11. Literally cutting the number in half. That’s an insane cost savings over the long term. It does mean somewhat less jobs in the future but it’s a moot point considering how many jobs they already can’t fill right now.

Right or wrong, it’s coming like a freight train and the union couldn’t stop it even if it wanted to. The only real hurdles are technical execution - we saw how PHL cocked up the EWR feed. That might give the FAA pause before trying a massive consolidation again on an even bigger scale and with greater stakes but I highly doubt it.

“Coming like a freight train “ 🤣 I don’t think you’ve worked for this agency long enough

 

[Bandit117]

Saying ZLA and ZOA are natural pairs just proves this is dumb. Living in the high desert or the Bay Area couldn’t be further apart in lifestyle geography and just about everything else.

Their airspace is adjacent. It would basically be a California center at that point. They are going to be building new centers, no one said it had to be or would be located where they are located now.

The agency doesn’t care about lifestyle, you should know better by now

 

[Bandit117]

“Coming like a freight train “ 🤣 I don’t think you’ve worked for this agency long enough

Either they replace and consolidate centers, which they now have a legal mandate to do or they do nothing and let them crumble and wait for a total collapse.

Public law 804 is gone thanks to natca partnering with the faa to break N90. The agency can now consolidate and realign facilities basically as they see it.

 

[Nothanks]

Either they replace and consolidate centers, which they now have a legal mandate to do or they do nothing and let them crumble and wait for a total collapse.

Public law 804 is gone thanks to natca partnering with the faa to break N90. The agency can now consolidate and realign facilities basically as they see it.

Yes I see it in law. I also see what the agency is able to accomplish when things are written in law.

Consolidating centers isn’t like moving 20 or so controllers from one working building to another “working building “.

Will it happen? Yea, maybe.

There are so many hurdles it’s not even funny, even if everyone is on board it’s a monumental task.

 

[Bandit117]

Yes I see it in law. I also see what the agency is able to accomplish when things are written in law.

Consolidating centers isn’t like moving 20 or so controllers from one working building to another “working building “.

Will it happen? Yea, maybe.

There are so many hurdles it’s not even funny, even if everyone is on board it’s a monumental task

You’re right that there are hurdles. I do think you’re somewhat overstating them. If the budget is there, there are no problems that can’t be rapidly solved by throwing money at them. There is no 804 to get in the way. Congress has been neutered and the union can’t do anything and wouldn’t even if they could.

The cost savings are too great and the status quo is too unsustainable. Centers are the most expensive facilities and the chance to save almost half that money will be a major driving factor.

 

[Nothanks]

You’re right that there are hurdles. I do think you’re somewhat overstating them. If the budget is there, there are no problems that can’t be rapidly solved by throwing money at them. There is no 804 to get in the way. Congress has been neutered and the union can’t do anything and wouldn’t even if they could.

The cost savings are too great and the status quo is too unsustainable. Centers are the most expensive facilities and the chance to save almost half that money will be a major driving factor.

I’m not overstating them. No need to list them here.


Time will tell, remind me of my comment in a few years

 

[Shikaka]

You guys say hurdles like the FAA and NATCA won't just blitz through it like the Special Olympics and declare whatever smoking ruins they leave behind as a victory while we deal with the fallout of the broken system.

They'll do it, quick or slow, and it'll be a hot mess.

 

[Raise when?]

it will take 10-15 years at best

 

[Bandit117]

it will take 10-15 years at best

I have no doubt it will take time, but comparing it to the PHL/N90 move forgets the fact that even though the faa and natca said 804 didn’t apply, it was still on the books and congress was making trouble about if that was really the case.

The reauthorization gutted 804, retroactively legalizing what the faa was doing in regards to n90, and from that point on, once there was legal cover, it went fast.

It is dangerous to be complacent and assume the faa can’t do anything fast or impulsive, because all those other things were done with 804 on the books. There is a new administrator coming and he is going to shake things up as best he can. Rumors are the 1500 hour ATP rule is in the crosshairs and as an airline CEO, he certainly wants ATC to be more efficient and cost effective. You’re right, it won’t be done until this admin is gone, but they know that and I have no doubt the goal is to get the process so far along they can’t turn back when someone else takes over. Organizational inertia goes both way

 

[Raise when?]

I have no doubt it will take time, but comparing it to the PHL/N90 move forgets the fact that even though the faa and natca said 804 didn’t apply, it was still on the books and congress was making trouble about if that was really the case.

The reauthorization gutted 804, retroactively legalizing what the faa was doing in regards to n90, and from that point on, once there was legal cover, it went fast.

It is dangerous to be complacent and assume the faa can’t do anything fast or impulsive, because all those other things were done with 804 on the books. There is a new administrator coming and he is going to shake things up as best he can. Rumors are the 1500 hour ATP rule is in the crosshairs and as an airline CEO, he certainly wants ATC to be more efficient and cost effective. You’re right, it won’t be done until this admin is gone, but they know that and I have no doubt the goal is to get the process so far along they can’t turn back when someone else takes over. Organizational inertia goes both way

yeah i mean i think 10 years at the very best.

here's another thing, a ton of people are eligible in the next 5-10 years.

Let's say they moved insanely fast and it was ready in 5 years. You think people aren't bailing? They'd have to offer massive incentives and people may still retire early. I'm eligible in 9 years. Of course, I'd move and go along with it for the remaining 4 years; but then I'd retire the day i was eligible.

There is a major staffing problem and the FAA needs to try and retain as many eligible for retirement in the next 10 years. Forced moves will drive them away for sure.