NCEPT debate thread

These would be the facilities I'd consider closing/consolidating or they would need an absolutely acceptable reason as to not need to be closed/consolidated. Their number of controllers affected and available to move (trainees would move as well, but they are not counted below) are based on the CPC staffing on this website. Also, I've listed their operations from 2016 and noted what I'd do with them.
ACT- 13 (42.6K tower, 88.3K radar)
Close/contract the tower and combine radar with AUS or D10
ADS- 10 (119.3K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
AFW- 11 (121.8K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
AGC- 11 (64.3K tower)
Most likely goes contract
AGS- 11 (29.8K tower, 65.7K radar)
Close the tower and combine radar with SAV or CAE
ALO- 9 (20.6K tower, 25.5K radar)
Close the tower and combine radar with CID
APC- 3 (47.4K tower)
Most likely goes contract
ARB- 9 (62.0K tower)
Most likely goes contract
ARR- 12 (63.7K tower)
Most likely goes contract
ASE- 13 (41.6K tower, 44.5K radar)
Stays FAA due to location
BDL- 10 (98.5K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
BGM- 11 (15.7K tower, 29.4K radar)
Close the tower and combine radar with ELM and AVP
BGR- 18 (45.3K tower, 61.8K radar)
Stays FAA due to location
BIS- 9 (56.1K tower, 34.1K radar)
Stays FAA due to location
BPT- 9 (18.9K tower)
Close the tower
CCR- 10 (122.4K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
CDW- 10 (91.8K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
CID- 14 (47.9K tower, 60.8K radar)
Keep tower and combine radar with ALO
CKB- 13 (20.0K tower, 42.2K radar)
Close tower and combine radar to PIT
CMI- 16 (41.K tower, 51.9K radar)
Close/contract tower and combine radar with SPI and PIA
CPR- 10 (32.3K tower, 20.2K radar)
Stays FAA due to location
CRW- 19 (48.2K tower, 67.1K radar)
Stays FAA and combine radar with HTS
CSG- 6 (17.4K tower)
Close tower
DAY- 15 (52.9K tower)
Close/contract tower
DLH- 16 (62.4K tower, 52.9K radar)
Stays FAA due to location
DPA- 13 (104.4K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
DWH- 12 (102.0K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
ELM- 12 (22.1K tower, 38.0K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with BGM and AVP
EMT- 8 (101.0K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
ERI- 14 (30.5K tower, 36.4K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with YNG and CLE
EVV- 12 (35.7K tower, 58.9K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with SDF
FCM- 10 (87.2K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
FLO- 8 (21.1K tower, 48.1K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with MYR or CAE
FNT- 12 (35.2K tower, 52.6K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with D21
FWA- 19 (38.0K tower, 74.5K radar)
Stays FAA due to location
GCN- 8 (108.2K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume/location
GTF- 11 (39.5K tower, 32.0K radar)
Stays FAA and combine radar with HLN
HEF- 9 (91.4K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
HLN- 5 (37.4K tower, 11.8K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with GTF
HTS- 18 (12.6K tower, 36.7K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with CRW
HUF- 11 (52.K tower, 45.9K radar)
Close/contract tower and combine radar to IND
ILG- 10 (55.3K tower)
Close/contract tower
JNU- 12 (92.2K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
LAF- 7 (99.7K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
LCH- 11 (28.5K tower, 55.6K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with LFT
LNK- 8 (61.5K tower)
Most likely goes contract
LOU- 11 (90.6K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
LVK- 9 (121.5K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
MBS- 9 (21.5K tower, 45.3K radar)
Close tower and combine radar to D21
MFD- 12 (16.5K tower, 31.9K radar)
Close tower and combine radar to CMH
MHT- 14 (61.3K tower)
Most likely goes contract
MIC- 10 (45.7K tower)
Most likely goes contract
MKC- 13 (78.7K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
MKG- 11 (26.5K tower, 42.6K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with GRR
MLI- 9 (36.1K tower, 52.7K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with CID and ALO
MLU- 10 (34.0K tower, 43.3K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with SHV
MRY- 8 (98.1K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
NEW- 9 (56.1K tower)
Most likely to go contract
ONT- 11 (112.8K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
ORL- 10 (117.3K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
PNE- 6 (59.9K tower)
Most likely to go contract
POC- 12 (98.6K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
POU- 10 (72.2K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
PSP- 9 (61.3K tower)
Most likely to go contract
PWK- 11 (80.0K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
RNO- 11 (86.6K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
ROW- 12 35.0K tower, 38.4K radar)
Stays FAA due to location
RST- 12 (44.1K tower, 43.0K radar)
Close/contract tower and combine radar to M98
SCK- 10 (80.9K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
SMF- 13 (112.8K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
SMO- 13 (117.3K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
SPI- 10 (32.4K tower, 39.5K radar)
Close/contract tower and combine radar with CMI and PIA
STP- 10 (61.6K tower)
Most likely to go contract
STS- 7 (81.7K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
STT- 9 (64.2K tower)
Most likely to go contract
SUS- 10 (101.3K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
SUX- 9 (16.2K tower, 20.4K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with R90
TVC- 8 (81.3K tower)
Stays FAA due to volume
TWF- 8 (26.8K tower, 20.3K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with BOI
YIP- 14 (69.5K tower)
Most likely to go contract
YNG- 15 (26.6K tower, 46.6K radar)
Close tower and combine radar with ERI and CLE

Total potentially affected= 883
Actual number likely to move= 459

I'd be better than the NCEPT has so far in regards to moves!!!
 
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Robertb said:
These would be the facilities I'd close/consolidate or they would need an absolutely acceptable reason as to not need to be closed/consolidated. Their number of controllers affected and available to move (trainees would move as well, but they are not counted below) are based on the CPC staffing on this website.
ACT- 13
ADS- 10
AFW- 11
AGC- 11
AGS- 11
ALO- 9
APC- 3
ARB- 9
ARR- 12
ASE- 13
BDL- 10
BGM- 11
BGR- 18
BIS- 9
BPT- 9
CCR- 10
CDW- 10
CID- 14
CKB- 13
CMI- 16
CPR- 10
CRW- 19
CSG- 6
DAY- 15
DLH- 16
DPA- 13
DWH- 12
ELM- 12
EMT- 8
ERI- 14
EVV- 12
FCM- 10
FLO- 8
FNT- 12
FWA- 19
GCN- 8
GTF- 11
HEF- 9
HLN- 5
HTS- 18
HUF- 11
ILG- 10
JNU- 12
LAF- 7
LCH- 11
LNK- 8
LOU- 11
LVK- 9
MBS- 9
MFD- 12
MHT- 14
MIC- 10
MKC- 13
MKG- 11
MLI- 9
MLU- 10
MRY- 8
NEW- 9
ONT- 11
ORL- 10
PNE- 6
POC- 12
POU- 10
PSP- 9
PWK- 11
RNO- 11
ROW- 12
RST- 12
SCK- 10
SMF- 13
SMO- 13
SPI- 10
STP- 10
STS- 7
STT- 9
SUS- 10
SUX- 9
TVC- 8
TWF- 8
YIP- 14
YNG- 15

Total Potentially Affected= 883

I'd be better than the NCEPT has so far in regards to moves!!!
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My buddy at PIA said they are supposed to consolidate their radar to st Louis. I guess its going to be up to congress, but that one is missing from your list. Also I don't see LOU ever closing because of its proximity to SDF and the dangers of student pilots running into big UPS planes. Can't speak for any other places though.
 
Robertb said:
These would be the facilities I'd close/consolidate or they would need an absolutely acceptable reason as to not need to be closed/consolidated. Their number of controllers affected and available to move (trainees would move as well, but they are not counted below) are based on the CPC staffing on this website.
ACT- 13
ADS- 10
AFW- 11
AGC- 11
AGS- 11
ALO- 9
APC- 3
ARB- 9
ARR- 12
ASE- 13
BDL- 10
BGM- 11
BGR- 18
BIS- 9
BPT- 9
CCR- 10
CDW- 10
CID- 14
CKB- 13
CMI- 16
CPR- 10
CRW- 19
CSG- 6
DAY- 15
DLH- 16
DPA- 13
DWH- 12
ELM- 12
EMT- 8
ERI- 14
EVV- 12
FCM- 10
FLO- 8
FNT- 12
FWA- 19
GCN- 8
GTF- 11
HEF- 9
HLN- 5
HTS- 18
HUF- 11
ILG- 10
JNU- 12
LAF- 7
LCH- 11
LNK- 8
LOU- 11
LVK- 9
MBS- 9
MFD- 12
MHT- 14
MIC- 10
MKC- 13
MKG- 11
MLI- 9
MLU- 10
MRY- 8
NEW- 9
ONT- 11
ORL- 10
PNE- 6
POC- 12
POU- 10
PSP- 9
PWK- 11
RNO- 11
ROW- 12
RST- 12
SCK- 10
SMF- 13
SMO- 13
SPI- 10
STP- 10
STS- 7
STT- 9
SUS- 10
SUX- 9
TVC- 8
TWF- 8
YIP- 14
YNG- 15

Total Potentially Affected= 883

I'd be better than the NCEPT has so far in regards to moves!!!
Click to expand...

Just curious how you came up with that list....what criteria did you use?
 
Stinger said:
Just curious how you came up with that list....what criteria did you use?
Click to expand...
I just listed all the level 4s and 5s according to the data on this website. Some of them could be combined together or with another close by facility to reduce agency costs and reallocate staffing to more needed locations. If cities want that service (like Napa, CA) let the city pay for it to be a contract tower.
 
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You listed JNU.. yes, they are dead in the winter.. but during the summer they are busier than most other facilities operating, often with 2 local controllers and having more aircraft buzzing around their airspace than a level 8. Don't use a level by itself to determine its necessity. JNU is a major airport for the area in Alaska and is a life line of supplies to communities around that don't have any other access but by air.
 
adub said:
You listed JNU.. yes, they are dead in the winter.. but during the summer they are busier than most other facilities operating, often with 2 local controllers and having more aircraft buzzing around their airspace than a level 8. Don't use a level by itself to determine its necessity. JNU is a major airport for the area in Alaska and is a life line of supplies to communities around that don't have any other access but by air.
Click to expand...
I just listed the 4s and 5s. I have since gone back and listed what I'd do with each of the lowest level facilities in the country. I understand JNU is busier during the summer and their facility level doesn't account for a small time frame of significantly increased traffic during the summer, but the agency needs to allocate resources to where they are needed throughout the entire year. Upon further review, I'd keep JNU as a FAA facility strictly due to numbers and I edited my post to reflect that view. However, if I was king for the day, I'd close the facility or contract it out and have a TDY appointment there from say April to October.
 
Robertb said:
I just listed the 4s and 5s. I have since gone back and listed what I'd do with each of the lowest level facilities in the country. I understand JNU is busier during the summer and their facility level doesn't account for a small time frame of significantly increased traffic during the summer, but the agency needs to allocate resources to where they are needed throughout the entire year. Upon further review, I'd keep JNU as a FAA facility strictly due to numbers and I edited my post to reflect that view. However, if I was king for the day, I'd close the facility or contract it out and have a TDY appointment there from say April to October.
Click to expand...

TDY would cost more than just having controllers there year round once you factor in travel and per diem... then factor in HR time for bidding, selection, re-training, etc. Saving no money in that process.
 
rugbydog11 said:
I didnt know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
Click to expand...
I don't claim to be a king, but it is a thread about what changes the agency could/should make to allow more employee moves, reallocate available employee resources to better provide ATC services where/when needed, etc. Don't take offense to a suggestion. Instead, make a few suggestions yourself.
 
adub said:
TDY would cost more than just having controllers there year round once you factor in travel and per diem... then factor in HR time for bidding, selection, re-training, etc. Saving no money in that process.
Click to expand...
That's a valid point. Even if it were potentially slightly more expensive to have full time employees there, it would be better than having to bid out a TDY and take the chance that no one wants to go there when ATC services are needed.
 
Robertb said:
I don't claim to be a king, but it is a thread about what changes the agency could/should make to allow more employee moves, reallocate available employee resources to better provide ATC services where/when needed, etc. Don't take offense to a suggestion. Instead, make a few suggestions yourself.
Click to expand...
It is a monty python holy grail quote. I didnt take any offense at all.
 
MJ said:
I get the hate directed at people who turn down a selection, but the anger should really be directed at the proper targets. The ones who created a system in which you as an individual have zero influence on the factors for any type of career progression.

Also re: military controllers. As someone who has been an active duty, dod civ, and FAA controller, I can say with great confidence most are absolute garbage. The military dumbs it down as much as possible to remove any thought process from the job, and pilots are taught the world revolves around them. You will never see civilian pilots get away with the things military pilots do at thier home stations. I saw someone say once that military ATC is like ATC with training wheels, and I think it's a good description. The Environment that mil ATC grow up in is not comparable to the civilian side. The thing that separates the successful and the unsuccessful ones outside is the willingness and ability to learn, just like every other new hire.
Click to expand...
Hey man, If you would have said this the before I started training I would have reported you for selling narcotics through this website lolol. But honestly after Training... SIMULATIONS at that, I was humbled fast. No I never used the "but in the military we did this" nor was I cocky. I actually was afraid I would wash out because I knew so little from what the military taught me as a controller. Not gonna lie you statement WOULD be offensive if you weren't active duty. However, offensive or not the statement is 100% correct. as a military control going to any level facility your mind set should be "I KNOW NOTHING"
 
HLN and TWF are non radar so there's nothing to combine. Both facilities are FAA solely due to their non radar approaches. You can still consolidate them but whoever gets them will suddenly find themselves doing a lot of chapter 6 stuff
 
Dolan said:
HLN and TWF are non radar so there's nothing to combine. Both facilities are FAA solely due to their non radar approaches. You can still consolidate them but whoever gets them will suddenly find themselves doing a lot of chapter 6 stuff
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True story, this is a very different operation. I believe HLN basically runs one in one out while at TWF we use divergence/arcs/timing/etc to sequence as we can
 
There are a lot of folks in the agency who only have the capability to work at Level 4-6's. Not everyone has the ability or desire to go to a big badass level 12 either. When you force them all into training at bigger facilities and they fail, then what?


That is not exactly something I see NATCA jumping all over as well.
 
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ATOH said:
There are a lot of folks in the agency who only have the capability to work at Level 4-6's. Not everyone has the ability or desire to go to a big badass level 12 either. When you force them all into training at bigger facilities and they fail, then what?

That is not exactly something I see NATCA jumping all over as well.
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Agreed, but those of us that do have the desire and/or ability to work at higher level facilities are stuck. All while the "lifers" can get as much leave as they want, when they want. Oh, and what's overtime?

Side note.

Restricting ALL new hires (track 1 and track 2) to level 7 and below facilities also will solve a bunch of issues and will do exactly what this MOU was intended in the first place. The larger facilities may suffer for a little bit longer but with how unsuccessful track 2 hires have been, would they?

This would fill the pipeline much quicker in my opinion and would increase overall success rates. Also, it would alleviate a lot of the tension from current CPCs getting passed over by their desired facilities for new hires.
 
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