NCEPT debate thread

[ATOH]

Restricting ALL new hires (track 1 and track 2) to level 7 and below facilities also will solve a bunch of issues and will do exactly what this MOU was intended in the first place. The larger facilities may suffer for a little bit longer but with how unsuccessful track 2 hires have been, would they?

This would fill the pipeline much quicker in my opinion and would increase overall success rates. Also, it would alleviate a lot of the tension from current CPCs getting passed over by their desired facilities for new hires.

Agree completely. I remember the second to most recent prior experience bid I saw they sent multiple people to places like ORD and all the big tracons. I wonder how that turned out...

 

[corn4ahead]

I was re-reading the NRP MOU and I found section 7 to be intriguing.

Section 7. The Parties at the National Level agree to review the effectiveness of this
Agreement quarterly. Based upon this review, the Parties agree to meet and jointly make
modifications as necessary to ensure the goals of this Agreement continue to be met. The
Parties shall utilize a mutually agreed upon mediator to assist in resolving any disputes
regarding modifications sought by either party. At the conclusion of mediation, if the
Parties remain unable to reach agreement on necessary modifications, either Party may
cancel this agreement by providing the other party thirty (30) days advance notice. In the
event this Agreement is cancelled, the provisions of the 2009 CBA amended by this
agreement shall return to the language as existed on July 24, 2016.

So the way I interpret this section is that all we need is for NATCA to put their foot down and say this process is not working. And then boom, the old system returns. Am I reading this incorrectly?​

 

[Dontbotherme]

There are a lot of folks in the agency who only have the capability to work at Level 4-6's. Not everyone has the ability or desire to go to a big badass level 12 either. When you force them all into training at bigger facilities and they fail, then what?


That is not exactly something I see NATCA jumping all over as well.

I'm trying to understand that viewpoint. I've seen people that weren't strong controllers, but why/how did those people make it through the academy?!? If someone can only work at a facility that does 50 ops a day (meaning they do even fewer), then they shouldn't be in the agency. We should striving to push people to be better and better each and every day. If the agency is unable/unwilling to hire, I'd support closing the slowest facilities (not necessarily based on facility level as I went back and edited above) to reallocate available resources elsewhere. I'd support combining low level tracons together to make larger, but consolidated 7s-10s. Eventually, get to the point where the centers don't do low level approach stuff during the day (except out west as the population is sparse). Example: airspace between JAX and SAV is worked by ZJX (SSI, BQK, etc.). Have JAX's and SAV's boundaries touch each other and have one of them assume ZJX's current low altitude airspace.

 

[Oz3l0t]

RST- 12 (44.1K tower, 43.0K radar)
Close/contract tower and combine radar to M98

Actually, this is already being looked at. The FAA sent a team to look at putting the radar here, ALO, or keep it there. They said moving it to us would be a good option. Now it's stuck in political limbo. There will be a tower at RST after reguardless. Lvl 4 or contract.

DLH I think will always be an Up/down because they have a pretty active fighter ANG wing. They also are really seasonal as most stuff up here for traffic. They work the radar from the tower cab 99% of the time anyways. I've actually contemplated the pay cut to go work there, My family loves that area and I have friends that work there.

 

[Mike Kilo]

While I agree the seven and below for new hires is great, I also think there should be a level cap for ERRs. Use the three levels that swaps have so these big facilities aren't picking up from level 5 and 6 facilities. Not sure what would work the best for something like this but level twelves taking from level 5/6/7 is ridiculous if they have other options to select from.

Maybe have managers ranking in two parts. Eight and above, and seven and below. Once the higher level candidates are worked through for placement, move to the backup "oh shit we need people bad" list. It wouldn't be a fix all but it would reward people who have put in he time and effort to move up. Instead of watching all the level eleven/twelve spots taken up by people with 2 years in and level six experience "because they know the facrep".

This would force people to move up to a middle facility before a high level and gain experience while staffing those facilities so others can continue their journey. This would be a more structured career progression.

 

[breakaway2000]

I was re-reading the NRP MOU and I found section 7 to be intriguing.

Section 7. The Parties at the National Level agree to review the effectiveness of this
Agreement quarterly. Based upon this review, the Parties agree to meet and jointly make
modifications as necessary to ensure the goals of this Agreement continue to be met. The
Parties shall utilize a mutually agreed upon mediator to assist in resolving any disputes
regarding modifications sought by either party. At the conclusion of mediation, if the
Parties remain unable to reach agreement on necessary modifications, either Party may
cancel this agreement by providing the other party thirty (30) days advance notice. In the
event this Agreement is cancelled, the provisions of the 2009 CBA amended by this
agreement shall return to the language as existed on July 24, 2016.

So the way I interpret this section is that all we need is for NATCA to put their foot down and say this process is not working. And then boom, the old system returns. Am I reading this incorrectly?​

You're reading it correctly, NATCA has the power to return it to the old system.

 

[CaptainObvious]

While I agree the seven and below for new hires is great, I also think there should be a level cap for ERRs. Use the three levels that swaps have so these big facilities aren't picking up from level 5 and 6 facilities. Not sure what would work the best for something like this but level twelves taking from level 5/6/7 is ridiculous if they have other options to select from.

Maybe have managers ranking in two parts. Eight and above, and seven and below. Once the higher level candidates are worked through for placement, move to the backup "oh shit we need people bad" list. It wouldn't be a fix all but it would reward people who have put in he time and effort to move up. Instead of watching all the level eleven/twelve spots taken up by people with 2 years in and level six experience "because they know the facrep".

This would force people to move up to a middle facility before a high level and gain experience while staffing those facilities so others can continue their journey. This would be a more structured career progression.

What happens when those 8-10 controllers don't want to move? In general those facilities are ones people stay at. MCO, SEA, SLC, etc. so you put a level cap in place that grinds movements to a halt until someone at those places wants to leave? Or you go outside the staffing and allow overstaffing of the 8-10s?

 

[CaptainObvious]

You're reading it correctly, NATCA has the power to return it to the old system.

Doesn't mean they're going to since they're fully on board with this scheme

 

[Stinger]

With seeing how Trump took office, anything is possible at this point.

That wasn't really a surprise though.

 

[rugbydog11]

I should run. Then just use this forums ideas for everything.

 

[Mike Kilo]

What happens when those 8-10 controllers don't want to move? In general those facilities are ones people stay at. MCO, SEA, SLC, etc. so you put a level cap in place that grinds movements to a halt until someone at those places wants to leave? Or you go outside the staffing and allow overstaffing of the 8-10s?

I understand it wouldn't fix everything. But as I mentioned you could have two lists. Or two parts to the list. 7 and below and 8 and above. They go through the higher level applicants first. And then if all spots aren't filled use the secondary list that was also ranked by the facility.

Which I guess would negate the need for a level increase "cap". I get sick of good level 8/9 people who have two or three facilities under their belts and 8 years in the FAA that are great employees get passed up because so and so facrep knows them, or because they are a facrep at a low level 14 CPC facility. I haven't gotten more involved in my local because they are doing a great job and have a good relationship with management. But you get my point.

 

[breakaway2000]

While I agree the seven and below for new hires is great, I also think there should be a level cap for ERRs. Use the three levels that swaps have so these big facilities aren't picking up from level 5 and 6 facilities. Not sure what would work the best for something like this but level twelves taking from level 5/6/7 is ridiculous if they have other options to select from.

Maybe have managers ranking in two parts. Eight and above, and seven and below. Once the higher level candidates are worked through for placement, move to the backup "oh shit we need people bad" list. It wouldn't be a fix all but it would reward people who have put in he time and effort to move up. Instead of watching all the level eleven/twelve spots taken up by people with 2 years in and level six experience "because they know the facrep".

This would force people to move up to a middle facility before a high level and gain experience while staffing those facilities so others can continue their journey. This would be a more structured career progression.

I'm in favor of this to a point and I could easily debate both sides pretty easily, but in reality I believe in piecemeal approach
- I don't believe there should be a cap for a terminal to enroute transfer.
- I do believe you need a radar ticket of some substance to work a 12 TRACON
- I do believe you need air carrier experience before applying to a high level stand alone tower

Believe me, I understand the merit as far as the transfer process is concerned, but there are so many variables. Ex. All level 9 up downs are not created equal. You could be technically transferring up 3 levels to a slower tower (Ex. JAX). If the goal is to simply pay your dues, that's one thing, but in terms of developing a better 'farm' system, we have a lot of data at our disposal in terms of the type of traffic/complexity, etc that we can factor in.

 

[Bigfella]

I should run. Then just use this forums ideas for everything.

A tree with a decent size knot is a suitable replacement to Paul and Trish.

 

[RogerDat]

I assure you there are tons of people in Levels 8-10 who want to move...my facility has tons of people and they are "trapped"....the easiest fix is to cap the move. You fill the 7's and below with new hires, allow them to move to the 8-10 levels (backfilling them with more new hires) and then after certification they can move on to the 12's. It is unlikely anyone who truly has the motivation to work at a high level facility will throw their hands up and just stay at a low level for their entire career because they are "forced" to go to a middle level facility first...it ain't happenin'! The result would be higher experienced candidates and lower washout rates at high levels.

 

[corn4ahead]

I assure you there are tons of people in Levels 8-10 who want to move...my facility has tons of people and they are "trapped"....the easiest fix is to cap the move. You fill the 7's and below with new hires, allow them to move to the 8-10 levels (backfilling them with more new hires) and then after certification they can move on to the 12's. It is unlikely anyone who truly has the motivation to work at a high level facility will throw their hands up and just stay at a low level for their entire career because they are "forced" to go to a middle level facility first...it ain't happenin'! The result would be higher experienced candidates and lower washout rates at high levels.

I agree with the above post that any level terminal CPC may transfer to en route.

Also, level 8-12 should be able to transfer to any level. So an 8 to a 12 would be a 4 level increase instead of the aforementioned 3.

 

[breakaway2000]

Also, level 8-12 should be able to transfer to any level. So an 8 to a 12 would be a 4 level increase instead of the aforementioned 3.

I could get on board with a two tiered terminal system...
4-7 and 8-12 with a 4 level ERR increase cap. 4-7's could all make the jump into the 8-12 category in one move, but couldn't get to a 12 before working at an 8 or above first.

 

[rugbydog11]

N

I could get on board with a two tiered terminal system...
4-7 and 8-12 with a 4 level ERR increase cap. 4-7's could all make the jump into the 8-12 category in one move, but couldn't get to a 12 before working at an 8 or above first.

Now we are just making too much sense... This would make so many people happy.

 

[corn4ahead]

N

Now we are just making too much sense... This would make so many people happy.

But it will also make a lot of people really unhappy. If someone knows they can go right from a 6 to an 11/12, then why wouldn't they? My facility has had so many people in the last 10 years or so certify at BOS, NCT, D10, DFW, D21, etc. So this process would really upset people trying to move on directly to the higher level facilities. Like I have said 1000 times, just because you were sent to a level 6, it doesn't mean you're only capable of being a level 6 controller. There are many, MANY strong low level controllers out there.

As far as fairness goes though, this makes so much sense. It also solves a need which they tried to accomplish by changing the level 9 and below up to 100% last quarter thing.

 

[breakaway2000]

But it will also make a lot of people really unhappy. If someone knows they can go right from a 6 to an 11/12, then why wouldn't they? My facility has had so many people in the last 10 years or so certify at BOS, NCT, D10, DFW, D21, etc. So this process would really upset people trying to move on directly to the higher level facilities. Like I have said 1000 times, just because you were sent to a level 6, it doesn't mean you're only capable of being a level 6 controller. There are many, MANY strong low level controllers out there.

As far as fairness goes though, this makes so much sense. It also solves a need which they tried to accomplish by changing the level 9 and below up to 100% last quarter thing.

My facility is very similar, as far back as I can reasonably go (roughly 8 years) we've had a 100% success rate at our next facility (including a few 12 TRACONs with no prior radar experience).

In our combined hypothetical, terminal to enroute transfers are left uncapped. While nothing exists that would please everyone, at least someone sitting at a 6 could go, well I can't get to DFW, but at least I can still get to ZFW.

 

[Mike Kilo]

But it will also make a lot of people really unhappy. If someone knows they can go right from a 6 to an 11/12, then why wouldn't they? My facility has had so many people in the last 10 years or so certify at BOS, NCT, D10, DFW, D21, etc. So this process would really upset people trying to move on directly to the higher level facilities. Like I have said 1000 times, just because you were sent to a level 6, it doesn't mean you're only capable of being a level 6 controller. There are many, MANY strong low level controllers out there.

As far as fairness goes though, this makes so much sense. It also solves a need which they tried to accomplish by changing the level 9 and below up to 100% last quarter thing.

I understand your level facility doesn't dictate your ability. But there are many mid level controllers that are great as well, that are getting passed over, for people with far less time in and only one facility.

I understand people might not like it, but how can you really complain when more qualified people are selected who have proven they can work busier and more complex traffic before taking the big step? "Man I really slaughtered this training program at my level six tower, but all these assholes from level 8,9, and 10s keep getting selected over me!!!"