NCEPT debate thread

[CaptainObvious]

I understand your level facility doesn't dictate your ability. But there are many mid level controllers that are great as well, that are getting passed over, for people with far less time in and only one facility.

I understand people might not like it, but how can you really complain when more qualified people are selected who have proven they can work busier and more complex traffic before taking the big step? "Man I really slaughtered this training program at my level six tower, but all these assholes from level 8,9, and 10s keep getting selected over me!!!"

Same argument I saw in the military. "I know you're motivated and know your stuff and crushed your exam, but so and so has 13 more years in than you so he deserves this promotion more than you because he's taken and barely passed the advancement exam 26 times"

How do you sort the good controllers from lower levels versus the poor ones at the 8-10s? There are people at every facility that shouldn't have ever certified, and those that only know how to work traffic one way, based on whatever facility they're at.

So what you're saying is a below average 8-10 controller is better than a skilled and eager 7 and below?

 

[Mike Kilo]

Same argument I saw in the military. "I know you're motivated and know your stuff and crushed your exam, but so and so has 13 more years in than you so he deserves this promotion more than you because he's taken and barely passed the advancement exam 26 times"

How do you sort the good controllers from lower levels versus the poor ones at the 8-10s? There are people at every facility that shouldn't have ever certified, and those that only know how to work traffic one way, based on whatever facility they're at.

So what you're saying is a below average 8-10 controller is better than a skilled and eager 7 and below?

No and I don't have a correct answer for all this. I'm just saying that it should be addressed in some form or another. When you say that there are those that shouldn't have certified I agree and having those people take that extra step into a mid level will help weed them out, and back into a lower level if they can't hack it.

But I can say that an eager and skilled 7 and below controller should be able to move to a mid level facility pretty quickly. Especially if they luck out with a small vfr tower with a five month training program. With this type of structure ther would be constant upward movement with mid levels moving up, lows moving to those spots, etc.

The mid level facilities are filled with those same eager and skilled people so how do you sort them from the ones at a lower level? Do you think an eager and skilled level five vfr tower controller with two years in should be selected for a level 12 tower over the people at SEA, PDX, LAS, DTW, SFO, MSP, PHX with seven years in? Yes I know some of these are well staffed with lifers lol.

I'm just saying the argument can go both ways and I personally would rather err on the side of, let's help these people who have been union members and great employees for longer (I am biased as this is my situation) than the new hire who knocked out his first CTO at Grand Canyon in record time.

 

[rugbydog11]

Having things being done quarterly needs to go away, and facilities should be able to pull an eligible list every single day that they need to get people in. A time based penalty for turning something down needs to happen. This would fix people trying to block one another. It would reduce the stress of "shit I need to have my paperwork in by this day, and only get bozo #1 checked out after the deadline but before the PPT runs".

 

[rugbydog11]

Also a minimum time as CPC at current facility should be required before putting in paperwork.

 

[Turn Right or Die]

Also a minimum time as CPC at current facility should be required before putting in paperwork.

How much time? I know someone who got an OJTI waiver and was able to train the day they got certified. They then volunteered to be placed on 3 training teams and became the facilities main trainer. Should someone like this be subject to a release delay?

 

[Jjsmoothmoneybigtime]

How do return rights work? If I bid n90 and I don't make it, am I only allowed to return to my previous facility or do i get the option to go in the nest? I'm not taking about quitting training but if I don't make it, can I get the option to stay in New York at another facility through the nest. Also do you have to give back the move money?

 

[corn4ahead]

Also a minimum time as CPC at current facility should be required before putting in paperwork.

How much time? I know someone who got an OJTI waiver and was able to train the day they got certified. They then volunteered to be placed on 3 training teams and became the facilities main trainer. Should someone like this be subject to a release delay?

It shouldn't matter. 1 year CPC regardless of any waivers.

 

[breakaway2000]

How do return rights work? If I bid n90 and I don't make it, am I only allowed to return to my previous facility or do i get the option to go in the nest? I'm not taking about quitting training but if I don't make it, can I get the option to stay in New York at another facility through the nest. Also do you have to give back the move money?

Per the N90/C90 MOU you can only return to your previous facility. You do not need to pay back move money.

 

[Turn Right or Die]

It shouldn't matter. 1 year CPC regardless of any waivers.

What about being an OJTI for the same amount of time it took you to get certified?

 

[Mike Kilo]

Or an ojti for twice the time it took you.

 

[corn4ahead]

What about being an OJTI for the same amount of time it took you to get certified?

I would agree with this but that is a logistical nightmare and as we have all seen, the FAA has enough difficulty in getting (and maintaining) accurate information. Also, a lot of time, it's not the individual's fault for a long training time. A lot depends on traffic, especially at low-level facilities. Additionally, some facilities have ridiculous "policies" regarding certifications that they continuously get away with.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

What about facilities where not everyone trains? Then you're just stuck because you can't meet that requirement? You guys are making it too complex. Leave it as one year post CPC, if you turn down an offer one year ban.

 

[corn4ahead]

What about facilities where not everyone trains? Then you're just stuck because you can't meet that requirement? You guys are making it too complex. Leave it as one year post CPC, if you turn down an offer one year ban.

Exactly, you have to keep things simple. This makes it easy to propose to the FAA and hopefully easily implemented.

 

[Mike Kilo]

What if your facility is well staffed and doesn't get many trainees? Not really feasible.

 

[RogerDat]

I love the argument of "should someone be penalized because they are good and were placed at a level 7 from the beginning and now be held back for someone at a level 9....first, you're not penalized for going to a 7 and not getting an immediate release to a level 11 or 12 because I PROMISE you are not as good as you think you are when you first certify! Not to be corny, but there is a whole lot of truth to the statement that you learn more when checked out and working on your own. Again, cap the number of levels you can jump by feeding the 7 and below with new hires and the high levels with the mid levels and implement a one year requirement to allow ERR. The amazing thing is that it is a simple fix but no one wants to piss off their bro....so instead, it will remain a vicious cycle of arguments and Band-Aid fixes and waivers and more waivers and so on.

 

[RogerDat]

What if this bullshit was never implemented in the first place??

A very valid question....

 

[breakaway2000]

Not to be corny, but there is a whole lot of truth to the statement that you learn more when checked out and working on your own.

I couldn't agree more. Being recommended for CPC means you meet the minimum qualifications to be considered. I learned more and saw the biggest 'jumps' in my abilities as an air traffic controller in the first 6 months after certification and the first 6 months of being an OJTI.
With a proposed 1 year wait before being able to ERR, two things happen.
1) You will be CIC certified (Eligible after certifying through the tower for 6 months)
2) You will be OJTI qualified on all positions (1 year from your certification date on all positions).

 

[corn4ahead]

Im really hoping that NATCA finally realizes this process is not working and they exercise sections 7 of the MOU.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Im really hoping that NATCA finally realizes this process is not working and they exercise sections 7 of the MOU.

That's the same natca trying to privatize us. I don't expect much.....

 

[Move78]

Right now the projected national average keeps continuing to climb so I don't know where we're going to make the argument that the process isn't working.