New mid rules

[corn4ahead]

The biggest problem I see FAA-wide is the mentality of "it's not as bad as it once was." It's a cop out and a poor excuse to not get any better. Should we all stop trying to get better because "it could be worse?"

This spills over into so many aspects of the job: Mid rules, training, hiring, Operational errors, etc. You name it.

 

[Electricfence]

The biggest problem I see FAA-wide is the mentality of "it's not as bad as it once was." It's a cop out and a poor excuse to not get any better. Should we all stop trying to get better because "it could be worse?"

This spills over into so many aspects of the job: Mid rules, training, hiring, Operational errors, etc. You name it.

I don’t think this is nearly as bad as people who complain about every little thing claiming it’s a slippery slope and the sky is falling chicken little type crap. I think if done right the “it wasn’t as bad as it once was” in combination with knowing when it’s truly important to fight are when things really get done because you don’t burn bridges And create better relationships along the way.

I’m one of the it wasnt as bad as it once was, I’ve had worse jobs type people and know that complaining about mid rules when numerous employees continue to screw it up are indefensible by both the union and the FAA, sometimes it’s about being realistic. We are paid to work not sleep and not do everything possible to avoid being on position and spend more time fighting it then it would be to work in the first place.

 

[GMX]

...And for those who said "we used to get NO BREAKS on the mid", that is not a convincing argument on any level...

You misunderstand me. I said when we had no breaks on the mid it was really bad. Then when they started allowing fatigue mitigation it got somewhat better, and for me would be at least sustainable over many years. Then some facilities used drunk Vegas rules to tighten their grip (breaks only from 0000-0500 instead of the flexibility of 0000-0600). Then some used this newest letter to reduce fatigue mitigation to no more than 2 hours. Death by a thousand cuts means they'll keep slowly whittling away what was making things okay and return to when it was clearly worse. I'm not arguing for the "it used to be so bad and is better now so shut up" camp. I'm just saying they want to take it back to when it was really bad. Soon enough fatigue mitigation will be an hour or something, or just gone again. As far as I understand (and as supes love to point out) fatigue mitigation is not guaranteed anyway.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

The biggest problem I see FAA-wide is the mentality of "it's not as bad as it once was." It's a cop out and a poor excuse to not get any better. Should we all stop trying to get better because "it could be worse?"

This spills over into so many aspects of the job: Mid rules, training, hiring, Operational errors, etc. You name it.

I think it all goes back to the fact that the FAA in combination with location management and union protections is unwilling to address problem children. A few controllers fall asleep or show up to work in an unsuitable condition, write a new national policy. A handful of facilities can't get their training together and have excessively long training programs with excessively high failure rates, write a new national policy. You're not getting the diversity in hiring that you want? Throw out the entire list and change the entire process maybe that'll help a staffing crisis. The FAA tries to make nationwide policies when it isn't realistic. Things need to be handled at a regional and local level. We've got NATCA reps for everything from drones to navigational aids to childcare... We can't find a role for someone who travels locally from facility to facility and overwrites the training plan to be more successful?

I fully support firing anyone caught sleeping in the mid or showing up incapacitated. I have personally seen trainees drag out their training for years beyond where it should be and then get certified when they shouldn't. There needs to be a legit way to get rid of people who cannot do this job yet are beyond their one year probationary period. Well all have that co-worker we don't want to work next to, who we all wonder how they even got here...

We need to address the problem children instead of writing sweeping policy for the entire NAS.

 

[corn4ahead]

I think it all goes back to the fact that the FAA in combination with location management and union protections is unwilling to address problem children. A few controllers fall asleep or show up to work in an unsuitable condition, write a new national policy. A handful of facilities can't get their training together and have excessively long training programs with excessively high failure rates, write a new national policy. You're not getting the diversity in hiring that you want? Throw out the entire list and change the entire process maybe that'll help a staffing crisis. The FAA tries to make nationwide policies when it isn't realistic. Things need to be handled at a regional and local level. We've got NATCA reps for everything from drones to navigational aids to childcare... We can't find a role for someone who travels locally from facility to facility and overwrites the training plan to be more successful?

I fully support firing anyone caught sleeping in the mid or showing up incapacitated. I have personally seen trainees drag out their training for years beyond where it should be and then get certified when they shouldn't. There needs to be a legit way to get rid of people who cannot do this job yet are beyond their one year probationary period. Well all have that co-worker we don't want to work next to, who we all wonder how they even got here...

We need to address the problem children instead of writing sweeping policy for the entire NAS.

Unfortunately, knee-jerk reactions are the name of the game.

 

[Shikaka]

You guys don't enjoy mass management?

Oh yeah, PRC us daddy!

 

[Mike Kilo]

Then we should just fire anyone that has a deal or makes any mistakes? Blanket statements don’t work. Every situation is different.

You are taking his words and blowing them up.

Take for example a point out procedure into a satellite airport that two tower controllers have screwed up. They launched a departure too soon not understanding divergence or aircraft characteristics. Instead of counseling those two, they make an SSR, have committees to find a solution, change sop and the loa and fuck with the whole operation.
Just fucking counsel those people and fix the problem. Don’t dumb down ATC to the lowest controller. “No controller left behind!!!!”

 

[Beyondatc]

You are taking his words and blowing them up.

Take for example a point out procedure into a satellite airport that two tower controllers have screwed up. They launched a departure too soon not understanding divergence or aircraft characteristics. Instead of counseling those two, they make an SSR, have committees to find a solution, change sop and the loa and fuck with the whole operation.
Just fucking counsel those people and fix the problem. Don’t dumb down ATC to the lowest controller. “No controller left behind!!!!”

I get it, but when people make the statement people need to be fired it goes against our entire contract. Knee jerk reactions is all the FAA does.

 

[Electricfence]

I get it, but when people make the statement people need to be fired it goes against our entire contract. Knee jerk reactions is all the FAA does.

aside from the contract, falling asleep on the job isn’t fireable? Signin someone in on the cruart knowing full well they won’t be there for half the shift? Pretending to be their voice on frequency? Coming in drunk or high?
What if a cop did this? Military while on duty? Fireman? Ems?

I’m asking what you think. If not why?

vote trump in, this will be the reality and be worse than you think this person is suggestion. I takethat he means why protect the people who fuck it up for the rest of us.

 

[corn4ahead]

aside from the contract, falling asleep on the job isn’t fireable? Signin someone in on the cruart knowing full well they won’t be there for half the shift? Pretending to be their voice on frequency? Coming in drunk or high?
What if a cop did this? Military while on duty? Fireman? Ems?

I’m asking what you think. If not why?

vote trump in, this will be the reality and be worse than you think this person is suggestion. I takethat he means why protect the people who fuck it up for the rest of us.

Some of your examples are clearly more extreme than others. Some deserve punishment for first time offenses. Others should be firable or at least reassignment to another position.

 

[Electricfence]

Look maybe a public website is not the best place for this discussion.

If letting the Public find out about this stuff is not acceptable or will be bad for us, then that alone is the justification for firings.

 

[Shikaka]

Raise your hand if you don't know a controller that would make the operation safer and more efficient if they were fired.

 

[Phillyman2633]

Am I the only one here who thinks it's absurd that you people want to want to fire someone who falls asleep from working a 1300 0600 mid? Someone should actually lose their job because the FAA is unwilling and unable to fully staff facilities so that we are able to rotate on a midnight shift as we do on a normal shift? Or because I'm beholden to whatever the fuck BWS whims the FacRep wants to impose without a vote to appease his senior buddies? There are multiple people here who have expressed interest in working straight mid lines which would allow us to dispense with this fucking suicide rotation, but the rep dismissed it with a wave of the hand at the meeting just prior to negotiations for the 2020 BWS and that was that. "Shut the fuck up and work what you're scheduled" was implied. Enough people here who want to work straight mids but nah let's keep these rotating schedules in place so that the senior guys get an extra 12 hour weekend to go sit in on Timmy's soccer game, or whatever the fuck senior people do with their wealth of extra weekend time when they end their week on a mid.

I just worked a 3 person mid last night and it was fucking glorious. Add one additional person onto a midnight shit and you're working 3 on 5 off, now that is fatigue mitigation.

Nodding off on the mid because you're running on 7 hours of sleep over a 48 hour period and taking prescription drugs and alcohol before you come to work should not be mentioned in the same post regarding fireable offenses. Like Samuel L Jackson once said "It ain't in the same fucking ballpark. It ain't in the same league. It ain't even in the same fucking sport."

 

[Termine]

FAA Updates to Management Responsibilities for Midnight Shifts MOU

Brothers and Sisters:

The FAA has updated the Management Responsibilities for Midnight Shifts memorandum dated November 9, 2018. The notable change is the elimination of paragraph 1 of the 2018 memo which stated that facilities will not combine to one position prior to midnight local or 90 minutes after the start of the shift, (i.e., If shift begins at midnight, position will remain open until 1:30 a.m.) whichever is later.

The updated Management Responsibilities for Midnight Shifts dated November 14, 2024 now requires that "Proper resource management is critical to the safety and efficiency of air traffic services. Staffing positions based on demand and providing full air traffic services is paramount on every shift, including the midnight shift. Facilities should not automatically combine down to one position at the start of the midnight shift.

Each facility must look at the historical trends and dynamically determine the appropriate position staffing expectations for the duration of each midnight shift to ensure full air traffic services are provided.”

The memo goes further to require that local SOPs must be updated to remove the requirements stated in the 2018 memorandum no later than January 10, 2025.

If you have any questions, please contact your local or regional leadership.

In Solidarity,

The National Executive Board

I'd like to see the new memo, surprised they didn't link to it in the email. I tried finding the 2018 one on the FAA's website a while ago and couldn't.

 

[Mike Kilo]

FAA Updates to Management Responsibilities for Midnight Shifts MOU


I'd like to see the new memo, surprised they didn't link to it in the email. I tried finding the 2018 one on the FAA's website a while ago and couldn't.

 

[Termine]

Thanks Mike Kilo. Any tips on how to better find things like that on the website? How did you know where to look?

 

[Mike Kilo]

Thanks Mike Kilo. Any tips on how to better find things like that on the website? How did you know where to look?

Unfortunately no lol. Someone sent it to me.

 

[CoffeeIV]

I didn't think that rule would ever get rescinded so it's a pleasant surprise.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I didn't think that rule would ever get rescinded so it's a pleasant surprise.

I wouldn’t be surprised if management at the local levels wanted to fight its removal from SOP.

 

[CoffeeIV]

I wouldn’t be surprised if management at the local levels wanted to fight its removal from SOP.

I'm sure there will be but I think it's a step in the right direction to make it where locals decide rather than a mandated nationally.

Also the argument can be made that the nationally FAA takes fatigue mitigation seriously so locals need to maximize recuperative breaks to the as much as possible.