Radar Service Termination

[kilo echo]

So this topic came up today when an adjacent facility went non radar. Is it legal to terminate radar service on an IFR aircraft prior to entering the controllers airspace. An example seen daily would be the IFR aircraft is nearing the adjacent facilities boundary and they have not taken the flash yet. Is it legal then to terminate the aircraft and suggest they contact that adjacent sector or do you need to spin the aircraft until a handoff is complete. In the .65 it only states when to terminate radar and when radar service is automatically terminated, however it does not specify whether or not those aircraft need be IFR or VFR. Any insight is appreciated, let me know your thoughts!

 

[jdatc]

So this topic came up today when an adjacent facility went non radar. Is it legal to terminate radar service on an IFR aircraft prior to entering the controllers airspace. An example seen daily would be the IFR aircraft is nearing the adjacent facilities boundary and they have not taken the flash yet. Is it legal then to terminate the aircraft and suggest they contact that adjacent sector or do you need to spin the aircraft until a handoff is complete. In the .65 it only states when to terminate radar and when radar service is automatically terminated, however it does not specify whether or not those aircraft need be IFR or VFR. Any insight is appreciated, let me know your thoughts!

Have had radar outages at flight levels at one center I worked. Radar service terminated contact....

 

[Stinger]

It's more than legal, it's required.
Call the receiving facility and pass a manual inbound, with the ETA at some fix, terminate the radar service (probably tell the pilot if it's not a known or common radar outage) and tell the pilot to contact the next facility.
I worked tons of aircraft both non-radar and inbound to Mexican airports where there was no radar.

 

[slater]

"AC123, Due to radar coverage issues/limitations in the next sector. Expect nonradar handling. Say estimated mins to x fix. (Use the fix in thier IFR route that are direct).

Call adjacent sector "non radar arrival/handoff". Then advise receiving controller of est. time 12:34 zulu to fix for ac123 and altitude level at or climbing/descending to.

They will say, permission to enter OR not.

Based on thier response, if they say "permission to enter" you would then say..

"AC123 Radar service terminated, keep your squack and contact X aproach on 123.45."

If they say, "unable" you would "spin em" and put then in hold and give the aircraft an estimated time in hold and possible reason.

 

[Stinger]

if they say "permission to enter" you would then say..

Unless that's in an SOP, the receiving controller doesn't have to give specific approval for nonradar entry. As long as the controller doesn't say "unable" or "put him in holding" or something like that, that aircraft automatically has approval.

 

[CaptainObvious]

What stinger says. We only give a transfer of control point between non radar sectors or with the adjacent ARTCCs. It’s just a coordination not an APREQ

 

[slater]

What stinger says. We only give a transfer of control point between non radar sectors or with the adjacent ARTCCs. It’s just a coordination not an APREQ

I find it hard to believe, especially if they are non radar in the event there is an IFR aircraft already in the vicinity that you would just terminate radar and ship. Who is protecting separation?

 

[32andBelow]

I find it hard to believe, especially if they are non radar in the event there is an IFR aircraft already in the vicinity that you would just terminate radar and ship. Who is protecting separation?

If they are running a non radar sector then they should have strips and an estimate on everyone coming inbound. If they have a conflict they should call and request the plane at a different altitude or route.

 

[Stinger]

I find it hard to believe, especially if they are non radar in the event there is an IFR aircraft already in the vicinity that you would just terminate radar and ship. Who is protecting separation?

You call the next facility prior to the aircraft even approaching the boundary. 5 minutes is the minimum amount of notification I think.
"inbound/overflight, 30 miles northwest of BBB, N12345, LJ60, beacon 3397, descending to 6,000, departure point KKK, destination BBB, estimating FIX at 1438Z, route of flight FIX, V111, BBB, your control."

EDIT: yep...4-3-8 says 5 minutes if you have an automatic transfer of data...a Departure Message would suffice so the next facility gets the flight plan information.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I find it hard to believe, especially if they are non radar in the event there is an IFR aircraft already in the vicinity that you would just terminate radar and ship. Who is protecting separation?

I didn’t say terminate and ship. I said coordinate a transfer of control point. Flight plan info should still pass between ERAM facilities and you can flash the data block on even though it’s not correlated with anything