Santa & Whitaker are negotiating a green Chri$tmas!

[PooseMaGoose]

Low 600s during the summer. Minimal in the winter.

And Im not saying they don't deserve pay raises, I simply think they're easier compared to Bravos and Charlies.

This argument all started because I suggested a facility either uses passenger or aircraft count for their levels. People get so offended and didn't read. VFR towers can keep using plane count. Core-30s should be using passenger count.

I'd love to hear a legitimate replacement to the complexity formula that doesn't fuck over a facility. I don't count paying everyone like a 12 regardless of facility a valid idea even though Ive seen it suggested on here or Reddit.

Passenger count. That’s a great way to dick over busy facilities that work a lot of business/regional jet traffic.. Two aircraft still need to be separated regardless of how many people are along for the ride.

 

[nab]

Still waiting on the piston to jet traffic mix complexity. Maybe in 2040 when we are all retired.

 

[Move78]

Hence why VFR towers would be counted by traffic not passengers. Also fuel sales already goes into the Airport and Airway Trust Fund which many VFR towers have their own self serve pumps and have satellite airports fly to them for fuel.



Hot take: Most VFR towers are easy as fuck. There are only a handful in the country that are outside the norm. I've worked Class D, C, and B towers. Deltas are a joke.

Slow vfr towers are easy. Slow anything is easy.

 

[CoffeeIV]

Slow vfr towers are easy. Slow anything is easy.

Still waiting on a viable alternative from you other than snarky responses. VFR towers could always keep county traffic count like they've been doing. Everyone else would likely benefit from passenger count.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Still waiting on a viable alternative from you other than snarky responses. VFR towers could always keep county traffic count like they've been doing. Everyone else would likely benefit from passenger count.

If we count “busiest” airports in the world based on passenger counts, then those ones should follow suit with the TCI and get paid accordingly. It’s actually pretty fair to use the higher of the two counts as the determining factor .

 

[ATC Zero]

Still waiting on a viable alternative from you other than snarky responses. VFR towers could always keep county traffic count like they've been doing. Everyone else would likely benefit from passenger count.

Debate what you want how to count traffic.
Flat 10% raise now across the board is the only fair way to do it IMO if we all wait on them to figure something out most will be retired.
If significant pay raises aren’t coming retention is going to be a real problem very soon. 20 and 50 or 25 and any age right around the corner for many.

 

[Move78]

Still waiting on a viable alternative from you other than snarky responses. VFR towers could always keep county traffic count like they've been doing. Everyone else would likely benefit from passenger count.

You’re goal here is to raise CI.
You could make the case that everything should just be inflated to raise CI. Why would the agency be interested in that?

 

[dingalings99]

Debate what you want how to count traffic.
Flat 10% raise now across the board is the only fair way to do it IMO if we all wait on them to figure something out most will be retired.
If significant pay raises aren’t coming retention is going to be a real problem very soon. 20 and 50 or 25 and any age right around the corner for many.

Just bump every fac up 3 levels with the appropriate raise and make new levels 13 14 and 15

 

[ATC Zero]

Just bump every fac up 3 levels with the appropriate raise and make new levels 13 14 and 15

Great idea!

 

[CoffeeIV]

You’re goal here is to raise CI.
You could make the case that everything should just be inflated to raise CI. Why would the agency be interested in that?

My proposed idea is based off the fact our salaries are paid by the taxes/fees from airline ticket sales. Not any made up "complexities". That money goes into the Airport and Airway Trust Fund. That fund pays for a huge portion of the FAA.

So if there are more passengers that means there is more money going into the FAA. Pretty simple concept. Sure it can be improved upon but if airports are making more money then ever with more passengers, why aren't we getting a cut of that?

 

[32andBelow]

My proposed idea is based off the fact our salaries are paid by the taxes/fees from airline ticket sales. Not any made up "complexities". That money goes into the Airport and Airway Trust Fund. That fund pays for a huge portion of the FAA.

So if there are more passengers that means there is more money going into the FAA. Pretty simple concept. Sure it can be improved upon but if airports are making more money then ever with more passengers, why aren't we getting a cut of that?

Why don’t they take that whole whatever and just give it to us as a bonus everyone gets the same

 

[Phillytroll69]

Why don’t they take that whole whatever and just give it to us as a bonus everyone gets the same

Wait are you guys arguing for privatization we've gone full circle to 2017

 

[32andBelow]

Wait are you guys arguing for privatization we've gone full circle to 2017

No. We’re asking for a piece of the pie

 

[bravounite33]

Wait are you guys arguing for privatization we've gone full circle to 2017

I was thinking the same. Sounds like the arguments for privatization but when you say that, people will immediately go no way!

 

[Kramer]

My proposed idea is based off the fact our salaries are paid by the taxes/fees from airline ticket sales. Not any made up "complexities". That money goes into the Airport and Airway Trust Fund. That fund pays for a huge portion of the FAA.

So if there are more passengers that means there is more money going into the FAA. Pretty simple concept. Sure it can be improved upon but if airports are making more money then ever with more passengers, why aren't we getting a cut of that?

Agreed. Every passenger should pay 1.6% more tax when purchasing a plane ticket. This tax would provide an increase of salary, staffing, infrastructure, stable funding....

 

[SunnyATC]

Agreed. Every passenger should pay 1.6% more tax when purchasing a plane ticket. This tax would provide an increase of salary, staffing, infrastructure, stable funding....

There are already plenty of taxes. 7.5% Federal excise tax, 9/11 security fee $5.6 one way, PFC up to $18 round trip, and another $4 excise tax.

 

[corn4ahead]

I don’t think I have ever agreed with CoffeeIV on anything.

However, Coffee is spot on here. Passenger counts should absolutely be a factor in determining facility level. The aviation industry has changed immensely since the creation of our current system. We have more responsibility than ever (more passengers responsible for) and yet facilities are getting downgraded more and more.

For all you VFR tower folks, yes, there are some towers that work hard. Generally speaking, most VFR towers (and I’m talking those without much commercial presence) work hard for an hour, then do nothing for multiple hours on end. On top of that, many are super seasonal, which affect that count as well.

I think there almost needs to be a few “classes” created when determining new pay levels as it relates to the primary function of each airport.

1. Z’s
2. Commercial Airports and core 30
3. VFR/secondary Airports

 

[Move78]

I don’t think I have ever agreed with CoffeeIV on anything.

However, Coffee is spot on here. Passenger counts should absolutely be a factor in determining facility level. The aviation industry has changed immensely since the creation of our current system. We have more responsibility than ever (more passengers responsible for) and yet facilities are getting downgraded more and more.

For all you VFR tower folks, yes, there are some towers that work hard. Generally speaking, most VFR towers (and I’m talking those without much commercial presence) work hard for an hour, then do nothing for multiple hours on end. On top of that, many are super seasonal, which affect that count as well.

I think there almost needs to be a few “classes” created when determining new pay levels as it relates to the primary function of each airport.

1. Z’s
2. Commercial Airports and core 30
3. VFR/secondary Airports

There are 3 classes.
1. Z’s
2. Tower
3. Tracon

 

[ATC Zero]

I don’t think I have ever agreed with CoffeeIV on anything.

However, Coffee is spot on here. Passenger counts should absolutely be a factor in determining facility level. The aviation industry has changed immensely since the creation of our current system. We have more responsibility than ever (more passengers responsible for) and yet facilities are getting downgraded more and more.

For all you VFR tower folks, yes, there are some towers that work hard. Generally speaking, most VFR towers (and I’m talking those without much commercial presence) work hard for an hour, then do nothing for multiple hours on end. On top of that, many are super seasonal, which affect that count as well.

I think there almost needs to be a few “classes” created when determining new pay levels as it relates to the primary function of each airport.

1. Z’s
2. Commercial Airports and core 30
3. VFR/secondary Airports

How you going to count passengers for Z’s if that’s the case they would be like level 14 they are working more passengers then any tower or Tracon.
Another note to consider are the people being stuck at lower and mid level facilities for way longer then ever before and shouldn’t be penalized for such: lower high three by no choice of their own. NATCA needs to work on getting all of the pay bands raised. This career is paying shit for anything below a 7 and they wonder why the quality has been going down.

 

[corn4ahead]

There are 3 classes.
1. Z’s
2. Tower
3. Tracon

Yes. I understand that obviously.

My suggestion is more or less subclasses. Because not all towers are created equally obviously.

Piggy-backing off that, not all areas within Zs/large tracons are created equally. My area works our butts off while 2 down the hall twirl their thumbs all day long.

I would never advocate for anyone to lose pay but it’s insane how there aren’t incentives to work at the busier, more complex areas within the same facility.