Shoot The Breeze

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ATCJoe85 said:
I think YOU may never know the truth, because you're following the mantra to "question everything" and you don't stop questioning it when answers are given. It's like when I point out that Biden and Trump both got the vaccine, and some people say "well how do you KNOW". Within the confines of the reality in front of me, I know Biden and Trump got the vaccine. I'm not omniscient though, it's not like I could monitor the vaccine be manufactured and keep track of that specific dose all the way to its destination.

Within the confines of the reality in front of me, using deductive reasoning and statistics and basic math, I know that we are in a pandemic, and that the vaccines are helping, not hurting. I can't tell you the future though.

Here's a chart that debunks your initial claims. Fits in with excess mortality too.


If admitting you're wrong is too difficult/shameful to do, and that's why you have stick to your guns no matter what... let me just say that I've been there too, but eventually I had to succumb to reality.

You can die with your seatbelt on in a car crash. If that's included in your reasoning for not wearing a seatbelt, then Godspeed.
But then when you post online for others to see that you don't really "need" to wear a seatbelt, and this idea spreads, now suddenly more and more people stop wearing them.

So again, if you don't want the vaccine, don't get it, but for the love of God, stop spreading your lame reasoning for others to digest and possibly be influenced by. Anti Vax would still be fringe if people weren't taken by this weird logic, instead of relying on statistics/math/common sense.


Less a lie and more like using the knowledge available. They didn't know the delta variant would come into play before it came into existence. But yes, at the end of the day, most important statistic is the decrease in odds of death/hospitalization. Is why I'm against mask mandates (at least where I live). Lockdowns and masks and all were with an overall goal to reduce hospitalizations and deaths. Seems that even with some increase, we've got a pretty good grip on it in *most* states.

I'm pissed that were likely going to have to start wearing them. Promises were made.
Click to expand...
Ok you can't claim that the influenza deaths didn't go down and then show a chart where they decreased for 2019 and then slightly increase, but still down after growing every other year. The fact is many corona 'deaths' may have been misdiagnosed.

I'm not saying it's not real, I'm not saying it's not deadly (to certain people)

I said we will never know the truth-on to the topic of reality-this is the first time this mechanism of vaccination has been wide spread-the reality is the vaccine only protects you from having a severe reaction. Why are you responsible for my vaccination and not say my hepatitis vaccine?

I have no doubt that Biden and Trump got the vaccine-and I encourage everyone in the at risk groups to get it.

On to statistics did you read about the Massachusetts outbreak? It doesn't matter if your vaxxed or not with the delta variant.

The reality is that the government does not have the right to mandate vaccine currently and that will be why you can opt for testing. Does that tell you all you need to know? Why can't they just mandate it?

Oh boy statistics are my specialty!

In a county with a vaccination rate of around 58%- 74% of new infections occured in those that were vaccinated? 4/5 of hospitalizations occured in vaccinated individuals-whats the reality here? The vaccine is the culprit according to your numbers game, but if we count my feelings this is a relatively isolated incident and we see the prevalence spread amongst the at risk with underlying conditions-the vaccine may have saved their lives.

So if you don't have an underlying condition, aren't in select groups, why would you get the shot?

Also, your seatbelt comment-people were literally cutting them out saying the government doesn't have the right to regulate them-yes those people were fucking idiots but at the time the government did NOT have the right
 

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I think YOU may never know the truth, because you're following the mantra to "question everything" and you don't stop questioning it when answers are given. It's like when I point out that Biden and Trump both got the vaccine, and some people say "well how do you KNOW". Within the confines of the reality in front of me, I know Biden and Trump got the vaccine. I'm not omniscient though, it's not like I could monitor the vaccine be manufactured and keep track of that specific dose all the way to its destination.

Within the confines of the reality in front of me, using deductive reasoning and statistics and basic math, I know that we are in a pandemic, and that the vaccines are helping, not hurting. I can't tell you the future though.

Here's a chart that debunks your initial claims. Fits in with excess mortality too.


If admitting you're wrong is too difficult/shameful to do, and that's why you have stick to your guns no matter what... let me just say that I've been there too, but eventually I had to succumb to reality.

You can die with your seatbelt on in a car crash. If that's included in your reasoning for not wearing a seatbelt, then Godspeed.
But then when you post online for others to see that you don't really "need" to wear a seatbelt, and this idea spreads, now suddenly more and more people stop wearing them.

So again, if you don't want the vaccine, don't get it, but for the love of God, stop spreading your lame reasoning for others to digest and possibly be influenced by. Anti Vax would still be fringe if people weren't taken by this weird logic, instead of relying on statistics/math/common sense.


Less a lie and more like using the knowledge available. They didn't know the delta variant would come into play before it came into existence. But yes, at the end of the day, most important statistic is the decrease in odds of death/hospitalization. Is why I'm against mask mandates (at least where I live). Lockdowns and masks and all were with an overall goal to reduce hospitalizations and deaths. Seems that even with some increase, we've got a pretty good grip on it in *most* states.

I'm pissed that were likely going to have to start wearing them. Promises were made.
ATCJoe85 said:
I think YOU may never know the truth, because you're following the mantra to "question everything" and you don't stop questioning it when answers are given. It's like when I point out that Biden and Trump both got the vaccine, and some people say "well how do you KNOW". Within the confines of the reality in front of me, I know Biden and Trump got the vaccine. I'm not omniscient though, it's not like I could monitor the vaccine be manufactured and keep track of that specific dose all the way to its destination.

Within the confines of the reality in front of me, using deductive reasoning and statistics and basic math, I know that we are in a pandemic, and that the vaccines are helping, not hurting. I can't tell you the future though.

Here's a chart that debunks your initial claims. Fits in with excess mortality too.


If admitting you're wrong is too difficult/shameful to do, and that's why you have stick to your guns no matter what... let me just say that I've been there too, but eventually I had to succumb to reality.

You can die with your seatbelt on in a car crash. If that's included in your reasoning for not wearing a seatbelt, then Godspeed.
But then when you post online for others to see that you don't really "need" to wear a seatbelt, and this idea spreads, now suddenly more and more people stop wearing them.

So again, if you don't want the vaccine, don't get it, but for the love of God, stop spreading your lame reasoning for others to digest and possibly be influenced by. Anti Vax would still be fringe if people weren't taken by this weird logic, instead of relying on statistics/math/common sense.


Less a lie and more like using the knowledge available. They didn't know the delta variant would come into play before it came into existence. But yes, at the end of the day, most important statistic is the decrease in odds of death/hospitalization. Is why I'm against mask mandates (at least where I live). Lockdowns and masks and all were with an overall goal to reduce hospitalizations and deaths. Seems that even with some increase, we've got a pretty good grip on it in *most* states.

I'm pissed that were likely going to have to start wearing them. Promises were made.
Click to expand...
"You can die with your seatbelt on in a car crash. If that's included in your reasoning for not wearing a seatbelt, then Godspeed.
But then when you post online for others to see that you don't really "need" to wear a seatbelt, and this idea spreads, now suddenly more and more people stop wearing them." I really don't understand your point. Are you saying that you are so compassionate & altruistic that you wear your seatbelt for others even when not driving or in a car? "Lame reasoning" Can you please elaborate or provide further clarification? Or, is this just your opinion? "Anti Vaxx" Are you calling me Anti Vaxx because we disagree? Can you substantiate your claim?
 
Phillytroll69 said:
Ok you can't claim that the influenza deaths didn't go down and then show a chart where they decreased for 2019 and then slightly increase, but still down after growing every other year. The fact is many corona 'deaths' may have been misdiagnosed.

I'm not saying it's not real, I'm not saying it's not deadly (to certain people)

I said we will never know the truth-on to the topic of reality-this is the first time this mechanism of vaccination has been wide spread-the reality is the vaccine only protects you from having a severe reaction. Why are you responsible for my vaccination and not say my hepatitis vaccine?

I have no doubt that Biden and Trump got the vaccine-and I encourage everyone in the at risk groups to get it.

On to statistics did you read about the Massachusetts outbreak? It doesn't matter if your vaxxed or not with the delta variant.

The reality is that the government does not have the right to mandate vaccine currently and that will be why you can opt for testing. Does that tell you all you need to know? Why can't they just mandate it?

Oh boy statistics are my specialty!

In a county with a vaccination rate of around 58%- 74% of new infections occured in those that were vaccinated? 4/5 of hospitalizations occured in vaccinated individuals-whats the reality here? The vaccine is the culprit according to your numbers game, but if we count my feelings this is a relatively isolated incident and we see the prevalence spread amongst the at risk with underlying conditions-the vaccine may have saved their lives.

So if you don't have an underlying condition, aren't in select groups, why would you get the shot?

Also, your seatbelt comment-people were literally cutting them out saying the government doesn't have the right to regulate them-yes those people were fucking idiots but at the time the government did NOT have the right
Click to expand...
Off the bat, I'll reemphasize that I'm pro- making things uncomfortable for the unvaccinated, but anti solid mandate. For instance, if restaurants and gyms in NYC want to mandate vaccines, they should be allowed to. But NYC itself mandating vaccines to visit those places... I'm against that. As long as we have the option to test instead of vaccinate at work, I'm good with that too.

"So if you don't have an underlying condition, aren't in select groups, why would you get the shot?" up until a few weeks ago, the clear answer was reduction in spread. A new variant changes that a bit (though it still sounds like it can reduce spread, just not significantly).

Most healthy young people had low odds of severe illness/death from the virus. Now the odds are lower (even when considering VAERs deaths, which may or may not be directly related).

Logical decision is to play the odds.

As to the study, don't know where you got 58%. This article suggests 67-74% (67% of entire, 74% of eligible 12+) of the population in that county was fully vaccinated a week before the outbreak began. 74% of cases occurring in 74% of the population doesn't seem to say much. If 100% of people are vaccinated than 100% of hospitalizations will be among the vaccinated. The important question is whether hospitalizations/deaths are reduced compared to prior.

www.capecodtimes.com

Cape Cod's high immunization rate should reduce Delta variant outbreak risk, experts say

A doctor and a university expert on COVID-19 say vaccinated Cape Codders are in a good position to fend off the highly contagious Delta variant.
www.capecodtimes.com

"Ok you can't claim that the influenza deaths didn't go down and then show a chart where they decreased for 2019 and then slightly increase, but still down after growing every other year." --- I'm not in a position to argue that there are misdiagnosed cases. Nor am I going to deny the likelihood that across our nation this occured a bit.

But I wasn't arguing with you saying that "they went down", I was arguing with the absolute fucking ridiculous conspiracy claim (and you're faaaaarrrrrrrrr from the only one who has used this) that you made, wherin you said "we have eradicated it".

People use this argument/conspiracy claim to make it seem like Covid numbers are exaggerated, failing to consider that even if you subtract every last influenza death from the covid deaths there are still hundreds of thousands of deaths left over.

ace super#1 said:
I think YOU may never know the truth, because you're following the mantra to "question everything" and you don't stop questioning it when answers are given. It's like when I point out that Biden and Trump both got the vaccine, and some people say "well how do you KNOW". Within the confines of the reality in front of me, I know Biden and Trump got the vaccine. I'm not omniscient though, it's not like I could monitor the vaccine be manufactured and keep track of that specific dose all the way to its destination.

Within the confines of the reality in front of me, using deductive reasoning and statistics and basic math, I know that we are in a pandemic, and that the vaccines are helping, not hurting. I can't tell you the future though.

Here's a chart that debunks your initial claims. Fits in with excess mortality too.


If admitting you're wrong is too difficult/shameful to do, and that's why you have stick to your guns no matter what... let me just say that I've been there too, but eventually I had to succumb to reality.

You can die with your seatbelt on in a car crash. If that's included in your reasoning for not wearing a seatbelt, then Godspeed.
But then when you post online for others to see that you don't really "need" to wear a seatbelt, and this idea spreads, now suddenly more and more people stop wearing them.

So again, if you don't want the vaccine, don't get it, but for the love of God, stop spreading your lame reasoning for others to digest and possibly be influenced by. Anti Vax would still be fringe if people weren't taken by this weird logic, instead of relying on statistics/math/common sense.


Less a lie and more like using the knowledge available. They didn't know the delta variant would come into play before it came into existence. But yes, at the end of the day, most important statistic is the decrease in odds of death/hospitalization. Is why I'm against mask mandates (at least where I live). Lockdowns and masks and all were with an overall goal to reduce hospitalizations and deaths. Seems that even with some increase, we've got a pretty good grip on it in *most* states.

I'm pissed that were likely going to have to start wearing them. Promises were made.

"You can die with your seatbelt on in a car crash. If that's included in your reasoning for not wearing a seatbelt, then Godspeed.
But then when you post online for others to see that you don't really "need" to wear a seatbelt, and this idea spreads, now suddenly more and more people stop wearing them." I really don't understand your point. Are you saying that you are so compassionate & altruistic that you wear your seatbelt for others even when not driving or in a car? "Lame reasoning" Can you please elaborate or provide further clarification? Or, is this just your opinion? "Anti Vaxx" Are you calling me Anti Vaxx because we disagree? Can you substantiate your claim?
Click to expand...
I'm not calling you anti Vax, but the logic of saying "you can die vaccinated or unvaccinated" as a way to diminish the benefits of vaccination contributes to the anti-vax movement.

Just as some people might say you can die with or without a seatbelt, and other people take that shit to heart and get themselves killed over it without spending the time to critically think.... that statistically you are better off with a seatbelt. Statistically you are better off with a vaccine.

Base your decisions on the statistics, odds, science, etc. Or at least, acknowledge and propogate the statistics, odds, science and still decide not to get a vaccination if it's not for you. If you can admit and share with others that your odds go down without a vaccine, but still don't want it out of sheer principle, I can't stop ya.

Same with a seatbelt.
 
Dontbotherme said:
They should be worried. It isn’t that hard to wear a mask and work airplanes. Yesterday, a buddy sent me a new version of the Covid-19 exposure questionnaire sheet and it specifically asks, “Have you been vaccinated for Covid-19?”
Yes
No
Partial Vaccination
Complete Vaccination
Date of Last Dose
Click to expand...
Yeah but you don’t have to answer that question with your facility management, you only need to answer it with the flight surgeon who by law can’t tell your facility.
 
ATCJoe85 said:
I'm not calling you anti Vax, but the logic of saying "you can die vaccinated or unvaccinated" as a way to diminish the benefits of vaccination contributes to the anti-vax movement.

Just as some people might say you can die with or without a seatbelt, and other people take that shit to heart and get themselves killed over it without spending the time to critically think.... that statistically you are better off with a seatbelt. Statistically you are better off with a vaccine.

Base your decisions on the statistics, odds, science, etc. Or at least, acknowledge and propogate the statistics, odds, science and still decide not to get a vaccination if it's not for you. If you can admit and share with others that your odds go down without a vaccine, but still don't want it out of sheer principle, I can't stop ya.

Same with a seatbelt.
Click to expand...
"Statistically you are better off with a vaccine" The last guy at my facility who got covid was vaccinated, I was exposed to him, I might be unvaccinated, and I didn't catch it. So, statistically we're at 50/50 in this scenario.

Base your decisions on the statistics, odds, science, etc. Or at least, acknowledge and propogate the statistics, odds, science and still decide not to get a vaccination if it's not for you. If you can admit and share with others that your odds go down without a vaccine, but still don't want it out of sheer principle, I can't stop ya. Why don't you do you and I'll do me? You really don't need to give me advice or direction and furthermore, there are probably a few decisions you make that you shouldn't...

"science"
Science once told us that flying was safe but restaurants were locked down because airplanes have better air circulation. Now science says you don't need a mask at restaurants and stores but you still have to wear a mask on airplanes. Also, science once said that running a 4 minute mile was impossible and then Roger Banister came along in 1952 and ran a four minute mile, now its kind of common.
 
ace super#1 said:
The last guy at my facility who got covid was vaccinated, I was exposed to him, I might be unvaccinated, and I didn't catch it. So, statistically we're at 50/50 in this scenario.
Click to expand...
That's not a statistic, that's an anecdote. N=2 is not good data. Try again when you have N=200 or better yet N=2000. Or, hell, if you're vaccinating an entire country try N=200,000,000.

ace super#1 said:
Science once told us that flying was safe but restaurants were locked down because airplanes have better air circulation. Now science says you don't need a mask at restaurants and stores but you still have to wear a mask on airplanes. Also, science once said that running a 4 minute mile was impossible and then Roger Banister came along in 1952 and ran a four minute mile, now its kind of common.
Click to expand...
Science is about the pursuit of knowledge. When we discover something new, our knowledge base changes. That's the difference between science and conspiracy; people who believe in a conspiracy refuse to change their beliefs in the face of conflicting evidence.
 
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ATCJoe85 said:
Off the bat, I'll reemphasize that I'm pro- making things uncomfortable for the unvaccinated, but anti solid mandate. For instance, if restaurants and gyms in NYC want to mandate vaccines, they should be allowed to. But NYC itself mandating vaccines to visit those places... I'm against that. As long as we have the option to test instead of vaccinate at work, I'm good with that too.

"So if you don't have an underlying condition, aren't in select groups, why would you get the shot?" up until a few weeks ago, the clear answer was reduction in spread. A new variant changes that a bit (though it still sounds like it can reduce spread, just not significantly).

Most healthy young people had low odds of severe illness/death from the virus. Now the odds are lower (even when considering VAERs deaths, which may or may not be directly related).

Logical decision is to play the odds.

As to the study, don't know where you got 58%. This article suggests 67-74% (67% of entire, 74% of eligible 12+) of the population in that county was fully vaccinated a week before the outbreak began. 74% of cases occurring in 74% of the population doesn't seem to say much. If 100% of people are vaccinated than 100% of hospitalizations will be among the vaccinated. The important question is whether hospitalizations/deaths are reduced compared to prior.

www.capecodtimes.com

Cape Cod's high immunization rate should reduce Delta variant outbreak risk, experts say

A doctor and a university expert on COVID-19 say vaccinated Cape Codders are in a good position to fend off the highly contagious Delta variant.
www.capecodtimes.com

"Ok you can't claim that the influenza deaths didn't go down and then show a chart where they decreased for 2019 and then slightly increase, but still down after growing every other year." --- I'm not in a position to argue that there are misdiagnosed cases. Nor am I going to deny the likelihood that across our nation this occured a bit.

But I wasn't arguing with you saying that "they went down", I was arguing with the absolute fucking ridiculous conspiracy claim (and you're faaaaarrrrrrrrr from the only one who has used this) that you made, wherin you said "we have eradicated it".

People use this argument/conspiracy claim to make it seem like Covid numbers are exaggerated, failing to consider that even if you subtract every last influenza death from the covid deaths there are still hundreds of thousands of deaths left over.


I'm not calling you anti Vax, but the logic of saying "you can die vaccinated or unvaccinated" as a way to diminish the benefits of vaccination contributes to the anti-vax movement.

Just as some people might say you can die with or without a seatbelt, and other people take that shit to heart and get themselves killed over it without spending the time to critically think.... that statistically you are better off with a seatbelt. Statistically you are better off with a vaccine.

Base your decisions on the statistics, odds, science, etc. Or at least, acknowledge and propogate the statistics, odds, science and still decide not to get a vaccination if it's not for you. If you can admit and share with others that your odds go down without a vaccine, but still don't want it out of sheer principle, I can't stop ya.

Same with a seatbelt.
Click to expand...
Thanks for a sane response-the vax isn't helping the spread or protecting against variants.
Let's say then we had a 74% vax rate- hospitalizations were 4/5, awfully close to 74%
 
ramfan402402 said:
Has anyone on here changed their mind about the vax based on any argument in here at all? Just wondering....
Click to expand...
After hearing 32 say a baby isn’t a baby until it’s born, I’m thinking he’s right and if he says everyone should get vaccinated then I better too.
 
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