Support Staff positions, and release dates?

[Ibreezeby]

Couple questions about above.

Are Support Staff Specialists positions still designated as 2152, and are they available to apply to if you're currently understaffed at your current facility?

Recently a position for one opened up at a location Id love to be at, however like most people here my facility is not at a staffing number to release through ERR. Would apply for this position be pointless? Thanks again

 

[YeeeeYeeee]

You’re SOL unless someone fights for a waiver for you.

 

[32andBelow]

Those jobs are reserved for people that lose their medical after getting 3 DUIs

 

[MJ]

Yes they are 2152s
Any position in the ATO is subject to the release policy

 

[Ibreezeby]

You’re SOL unless someone fights for a waiver for you.

Well, that's not happening.. lol

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

Those jobs are reserved for people that lose their medical after getting 3 DUIs

Got lucky with mine. No DUIs, medical wasn't in (immediate) jeopardy, my old facility was 804'd so they could release plenty of people, and my new facility got a new ATM who was looking to fill all available positions at their facility. I mean, I'm a true American (fat and lazy) so medical would eventually bite me in the ass at some point, but nothing disqualifying currently.

Ibreezeby if you really want to try for it, your best bet is to kiss as much ass as possible and fight for someone to fight for a waiver for you. I'm only a year and half in to the SSS position but I love it so far; occasionally engaging work and a normal work schedule. If controlling isn't the be-all end-all for you, go for it.

Somewhat related: I recently spoke with a center FacRep about a SSS opening at their facility and they said - unless someone's medical is in direct Jeopardy - controllers at centers don't bother with the support specialist position anymore because they don't want to give up OT and shift diff, and apparently they can easily get age extensions for a few years now. Blew my mind; I think this is a cherry gig.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Got lucky with mine. No DUIs, medical wasn't in (immediate) jeopardy, my old facility was 804'd so they could release plenty of people, and my new facility got a new ATM who was looking to fill all available positions at their facility. I mean, I'm a true American (fat and lazy) so medical would eventually bite me in the ass at some point, but nothing disqualifying currently.

Ibreezeby if you really want to try for it, your best bet is to kiss as much ass as possible and fight for someone to fight for a waiver for you. I'm only a year and half in to the SSS position but I love it so far; occasionally engaging work and a normal work schedule. If controlling isn't the be-all end-all for you, go for it.

Somewhat related: I recently spoke with a center FacRep about a SSS opening at their facility and they said - unless someone's medical is in direct Jeopardy - controllers at centers don't bother with the support specialist position anymore because they don't want to give up OT and shift diff, and apparently they can easily get age extensions for a few years now. Blew my mind; I think this is a cherry gig.

What would you say the worst aspect of the job is? I'm looking at applying for one right now too

 

[TimShady]

Is it true you don’t accumulate good time with these positions even if you maintain currency? I’ve never seen a source for this but it’s worth considering. What’s the retirement if you don’t have 20 years good time beforehand, 62?

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

What would you say the worst aspect of the job is? I'm looking at applying for one right now too

I think the worst aspect is kind of dependent upon the size of the facility that you are at and the kind of work that you want to be doing.

I'm currently at a low level facility, so I am kind of a jack of all trades in regards to "helping" with QA/QC, training, airspace & procedures, and any other miscellaneous crap (I'm a tech nerd so people in the facility come to me with troubleshoot requests for setting things up, spreadsheet and powerpoint info, and other crap that isn't really SSS job duties but I'm happy to help where I can).

I know at larger facilities the SSS positions become a bit more focused/specialized in QA/QC, training, or airspace & procedures so your mileage may very if you get a position at a large facility and get designated one of those roles and you do/don't like that particular area of work. But I've found out I'm pretty good with and enjoy doing QA/QC stuff (putting together Falcon replays and TRB packets and other stuff) and don't really care for training related-duties (giving the crappy briefings on dumbass changes to shit we already know and being "that guy" who doesn't do the job anymore but tells you how to do it). Haven't had a lot of exposure to A&P work (LOAs and SOPs and the like) but that seems decent as well if you like poking holes in things and trying to word things better.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

I think the worst aspect is kind of dependent upon the size of the facility that you are at and the kind of work that you want to be doing.

I'm currently at a low level facility, so I am kind of a jack of all trades in regards to "helping" with QA/QC, training, airspace & procedures, and any other miscellaneous crap (I'm a tech nerd so people in the facility come to me with troubleshoot requests for setting things up, spreadsheet and powerpoint info, and other crap that isn't really SSS job duties but I'm happy to help where I can).

I know at larger facilities the SSS positions become a bit more focused/specialized in QA/QC, training, or airspace & procedures so your mileage may very if you get a position at a large facility and get designated one of those roles and you do/don't like that particular area of work. But I've found out I'm pretty good with and enjoy doing QA/QC stuff (putting together Falcon replays and TRB packets and other stuff) and don't really care for training related-duties (giving the crappy briefings on dumbass changes to shit we already know and being "that guy" who doesn't do the job anymore but tells you how to do it). Haven't had a lot of exposure to A&P work (LOAs and SOPs and the like) but that seems decent as well if you like poking holes in things and trying to word things better.

Good info thanks

Edit-also did they let you keep a ticket and get the cupcake checkout or no?

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

Is it true you don’t accumulate good time with these positions even if you maintain currency? I’ve never seen a source for this but it’s worth considering. What’s the retirement if you don’t have 20 years good time beforehand, 62?

From what I understand, if you maintain currency you still get good time in the position. If you ever lose your medical or stop controlling then it no longer is good time. Then it is just like every other federal job's retirement structure.

But I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't mind working at a job I enjoy doing and I don't think I want to retire early. Sacrificing good time does absolutely suck but I'm in a position I don't mind showing up to work for, doesn't require a medical, has normal hours and a normal schedule, is significantly lower stress, and taking leave when I want is practically never an issue.

Good info thanks

Edit-also did they let you keep a ticket and get the cupcake checkout or no?

I had no strong interest in keeping my ticket so I told the ATM when he offered the position to me that I wasn't interested in it. Might be a different case for other ATMs, but that's just a guess.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Never heard of a MSS-1 keeping good time. I’d be interested to see some documentation on that.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Never heard of a MSS-1 keeping good time. I’d be interested to see some documentation on that.

I think it used to be more prevalent than it is now, I'm not even sure it's still a thing tbh.

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

Never heard of a MSS-1 keeping good time. I’d be interested to see some documentation on that.

I believe, and I am very open to being wrong about it, that SSS falls under the same guidelines as OS/OM/ATM getting good time: if they maintain currency and make sure it is applied/authorized.

If you look at the SSS openings on usajobs, under the "Additional Information" section they usually have a clause at the bottom of that section if the position isn't eligible for good time purposes; I believe those are for SSS positions they know are going to be full-time admin work gigs without the ability to maintain currency.

Again I could be absolutely wrong, but I believe I have heard of it happening; although SSS used to be for the poor souls who couldn't keep medical anyway so controlling and getting good time wasn't an option for most of them.

Maybe if we donate to the GoFundMe we can get that negotiated along with our next "new and improved" CBA...

 

[MJ]

I believe, and I am very open to being wrong about it, that SSS falls under the same guidelines as OS/OM/ATM getting good time: if they maintain currency and make sure it is applied/authorized.

pretty sure this is correct. we had one that never maintained proficiency but he was eligible to, and he kept good time. I've never looked for the regs on it though.

 

[jdatc]

Never heard of a MSS-1 keeping good time. I’d be interested to see some documentation on that.

Agree. We Have staff support specialist that maintains currency however I was told it wasn't good time for ATC retirement due to the position being a permanent position and not a temp. I could be wrong, I often am.

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

Never heard of a MSS-1 keeping good time. I’d be interested to see some documentation on that.

I think it used to be more prevalent than it is now, I'm not even sure it's still a thing tbh.

pretty sure this is correct. we had one that never maintained proficiency but he was eligible to, and he kept good time. I've never looked for the regs on it though.

Agree. We Have staff support specialist that maintains currency however I was told it wasn't good time for ATC retirement due to the position being a permanent position and not a temp. I could be wrong, I often am.

You know, something should be said about the fact that all of us are able to state what we think while also simultaneously being willing to admit that we could be wrong.

I think all of us deserve a moment of recognition and a golf clap for that.

 

[LE]

My manager asked HR this exact question, whether SS position could be good time if you maintained currency and medical, and HR said nope.

 

[jermscentral]

No SSS gets good time, and it's likely they never will. Here's a reply I received from NATCA when I asked about it in 2019:

"The question “is there a chance that position will return to earning good time” implies that Staff Support Specialists once received credit for enhanced air traffic retirement and now do not. That is not the case.

5 United States Code Section 2109 defines Air Traffic Controller for retirement. It provides

(1)“air traffic controller” or “controller” means a civilian employee of the Department of Transportation or the Department of Defense who, in an air traffic control facility or flight service station facility—

(A) is actively engaged—
(i) in the separation and control of air traffic; or
(ii) in providing preflight, inflight, or airport advisory service to aircraft operators; or

(B) is the immediate supervisor of any employee described in subparagraph (A)

The provisions 5 USC 8415(f) provide for the FERS annuity calculation and refers back to the same definition of air traffic controller.

(f) The annuity of an air traffic controller or former air traffic controller retiring under section 8412(a) is computed under subsection (a), except that if the individual has at least 5 years of service in any combination as—
(1) an air traffic controller as defined by section 2109(1)(A)(i);
(2) a first level supervisor of an air traffic controller as defined by section 2109(1)(A)(i); or
(3) a second level supervisor of an air traffic controller as defined by section 2109(1)(A)(i);
so much of the annuity as is computed with respect to such type of service shall be computed by multiplying 1 7/10 percent of the individual’s average pay by the years of such service.

There are separate specific ATC provision for mandatory separation and qualification for immediate annuity. All of them also apply the same definition of air traffic controller.

The definition itself has had some changes over the years, but never to include staff support specialists. Flight service station air traffic controllers were added effective January 1987. Second level supervisors were later added and clarified in 2016.

The “why” staff support specialists, including those who maintain operational currency, do not receive enhanced annuity credit is equally complicated. The original definition of air traffic controllers who qualify for the enhanced annuity was subject to the discretion of the Secretary. That still remains part of the law in 5 USC 2109. As such, the Secretary of Transportation determines who qualifies under the definitions set by 2109(a). OPM only applies the certification of applicable air traffic controller enhanced annuity certified by the FAA in accordance with the Secretary’s issued rules and procedures.

Over the years, NATCA has discussed the possibility of adding staff support specialists, particularly those who maintain operational currency, to the definition of air traffic controller in 2109. It has never been something that members of Congress want to champion. Federal employee retirement, particularly the enhanced annuity, has always been something that brings great scrutiny. For the past decade there have been significant attempts to reduce or eliminate entirely the FERS defined benefit; eliminate the social security supplemental annuity provided to those subject to mandatory retirement, including air traffic controllers, federal law enforcement officers, and federal firefighters; and otherwise negatively affect retirement annuity calculations, such as moving from a high-3 to a high-5. In this environment, NATCA does not wish to lobby for changes to the current retirement system because once it is considered open and subject to amendment, it could risk the retirement program for all air traffic controllers."

 

[TimShady]

Great info, thanks for posting.