Wake turbulence with pattern traffic

[creepstreets]

We had a scenario come up, and there was a bit of a debate regarding wake turbulence for an aircraft in the pattern.

We had a large that was on a visual approach to the runway on right downwind. At the same time, we had a small on left downwind in the pattern. The large turned base, and we pointed out the traffic to the small so that he could follow the large in to the runway. If the small did NOT get the large in sight, would the small require the 4 miles in trail behind the large in 7110.65 5.5.4I?

 

[Termine]

Radar sep is a type of IFR sep.

And it's also a type of VFR sep, in those situations/airspaces where VFRs are provided separation.

 

[BDUB]

If you have a Large departing and a small on an instrument approach to the same runway and that small reports the large in sight on a 1 mile final can you give the spiel and give T & G clearance even though they can’t really mitigate their wake turbulence because they’re flying a established approach?

 

[SharDiNae]

If you have a Large departing and a small on an instrument approach to the same runway and that small reports the large in sight on a 1 mile final can you give the spiel and give T & G clearance even though they can’t really mitigate their wake turbulence because they’re flying a established approach?

If hes at 1 mile final id probably just hold the large and depart him after the small is gone. I have this same question though for if he was say 2/3/4 miles out. Maybe they give the small a missed heading to fly over the turbs. Can always say "go around" to take it in your own hands.

 

[Jacrooster]

If you have a Large departing and a small on an instrument approach to the same runway and that small reports the large in sight on a 1 mile final can you give the spiel and give T & G clearance even though they can’t really mitigate their wake turbulence because they’re flying a established approach?

They can mitigate their wake turbulence in theory. The idea is that they would adjust their flight path to ensure they touch down early and make sure they rotate prior to where the departure rotates, this climbing above their wake turbulence. This was taught in private pilot ground school and wouldn't be surprised if it's in the AIM somewhere for how pilots should operate with regards to wake turbulence.

This is assuming the small has the departing large aircraft in sight and you issue a cautionary advisory.

 

[MJ]

Ok I clearly don't know what synonymous means lmao that's not what I meant at all.

What I was mostly getting at with that is, in other than class B/C(I now know to specify), we supposedly do not have to provide wake turbulence separation to IFR if the preceding aircraft is VFR. Is this correct?

I'm generally asking because at this point I'm not sure.

It's not that you don't have to provide it, it's more like you can't provide it.

To exaggerate the point, think of an uncontrolled field. Do you have ANY idea of what's going on in that pattern where you would be able to provide separation to an IFR arrival? Same idea for a D tower. Towers' only separation responsibility for arrivals is the runway. Strip that tower down to it's basic function/capability and it's easy to see why it can't provide any sep.

And it's also a type of VFR sep, in those situations/airspaces where VFRs are provided separation.

 

[NotKC]

That and not all D towers have a radar to apply this sep

 

[Acquired Taste]

It's not that you don't have to provide it, it's more like you can't provide it.

To exaggerate the point, think of an uncontrolled field. Do you have ANY idea of what's going on in that pattern where you would be able to provide separation to an IFR arrival? Same idea for a D tower. Towers' only separation responsibility for arrivals is the runway. Strip that tower down to it's basic function/capability and it's easy to see why it can't provide any sep.

I've never worked a class C but if someone is doing pattern work at a Class C airport, are they radar identified?

 

[MJ]

That and not all D towers have a radar to apply this sep

No D towers have a radar, they have certified tower displays.

I've never worked a class C but if someone is doing pattern work at a Class C airport, are they radar identified?

A tower in a C* provides radar services, so yeah they are positively id'd.

*there are exceptions, where the tower is within a C airspace but is a D surface area, so they don't provide radar services. pretty sure all usaf towers w/ approaches are like that

 

[darthmoses]

No D towers have a radar, they have certified tower displays.

Not all of us have radar. Speaking as a controller at one of the 2 FAA towers in the NAS that don’t. No traffic displays of any kind.

 

[rhombus]

No D towers have a radar, they have certified tower displays.

A tower in a C* provides radar services, so yeah they are positively id'd.

*there are exceptions, where the tower is within a C airspace but is a D surface area, so they don't provide radar services. pretty sure all usaf towers w/ approaches are like that

It might be the only one in the nation but Teterboro provides radar services

 

[AZNLUVR69]

No D towers have a radar, they have certified tower displays.

A tower in a C* provides radar services, so yeah they are positively id'd.

*there are exceptions, where the tower is within a C airspace but is a D surface area, so they don't provide radar services. pretty sure all usaf towers w/ approaches are like that

What if they departed from the the C airport to remain in the pattern? How are they radar identified? Can a tower only Class C controller radar identify aircraft?

 

[rhombus]

What if they departed from the the C airport to remain in the pattern? How are they radar identified? Can a tower only Class C controller radar identify aircraft?

You don't need a radar ticket to radar ID aircraft. Class B controllers do it every day.

I would only radar ID someone in a C if I were applying 5-5-4 for wake reasons

 

[MJ]

What if they departed from the the C airport to remain in the pattern? How are they radar identified? Can a tower only Class C controller radar identify aircraft?

Yes

 

[AZNLUVR69]

You don't need a radar ticket to radar ID aircraft. Class B controllers do it every day.

I would only radar ID someone in a C if I were applying 5-5-4 for wake reasons

Thanks. My old tower only Charlie we had VFR call ups and would radar ID them using primary and secondary methods, point out to approach, and sequence them in from the tower.

New tower Charlie tells me I can’t say “radar contact” or radar ID aircraft because I’m not “radar certified”. They force us to tell VFR call ups to contact approach? I don’t get it.

 

[Termine]

How are they radar identified?

5-3-2a.

I’m not “radar certified”

Have you ever in your life taken the radar quals CBI? Congrats, you're radar certified.

 

[MJ]

Thanks. My old tower only Charlie we had VFR call ups and would radar ID them using primary and secondary methods, point out to approach, and sequence them in from the tower.

New tower Charlie tells me I can’t say “radar contact” or radar ID aircraft because I’m not “radar certified”. They force us to tell VFR call ups to contact approach? I don’t get it.

FAA Up/Down?

 

[AZNLUVR69]

FAA Up/Down?

Both are tower only class Charlie. Approach is ran by a different facility at both.

 

[ManBearPig]

I've never worked a class C but if someone is doing pattern work at a Class C airport, are they radar identified?

No.

 

[MJ]

No.

Yes. How would you provide radar services as required if there is no radar identification?

Both are tower only class Charlie. Approach is ran by a different facility at both.

Yeah that makes sense. You might not be delegated any responsibilities or authoritah. I'm don't know details on how a tower only in a C surface area is handled, but I can't see how there aren't SOME radar functions you can't perform, you have to be able to do to meet class C requirements. Limited radar services/class c services is how I've seen it described in LOAs.

Corpus approach has that relationship w/ Harlingen, maybe someone from there can add some insight.

 

[slater]

If they have a certified radar display. Tower can provide radar services as stated in the SOP.