Facility Downgrades / Upgrades

[DankVectorz]

The New York air traffic controllers association . It why you get to pay Paul 250k a year when he doesn’t even have a fully functional website

What does Paul have to do with NY?

 

[Raise when?]

ykno it's kinda dumb when bue's talk down on other facilities. saying x facility doesn't deserve whatever.

i personally don't think downgrades should even be a thing. lol. what the hell. with inflation how it has been the past few yrs, they need to get us off the pay cap and give everyone a 20k salary bump FAA wide as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Wizard]

ykno it's kinda dumb when bue's talk down on other facilities. saying x facility doesn't deserve whatever.

i personally don't think downgrades should even be a thing. lol. what the hell. with inflation how it has been the past few yrs, they need to get us off the pay cap and give everyone a 20k salary bump FAA wide as far as I'm concerned.

Yes other BUE losing pay while good ol boy JFK has been under for 11 years and not downgraded isint infuriating at all

 

[bravounite33]

Yes other BUE losing pay while good ol boy JFK has been under for 11 years and not downgraded isint infuriating at all

Appendix A of the contract has JFK, EWR and LGA all sharing the highest level of the 3. Might be infuriating but it's being done as per the contract.

 

[rhombus]

Yes other BUE losing pay while good ol boy JFK has been under for 11 years and not downgraded isint infuriating at all

Gotta love EWR and LGA controllers working Level 11 traffic so JFK controllers can one day hit government max

 

[CoffeeIV]

JFK works way more traffic than LaGarbage.

 

[rhombus]

JFK works way more traffic than LaGarbage.

When you factor in the NYC tours it’s not a huge difference. Also LGA has a curfew from 0000-0600 so I bet their hourly average is higher for TCI purposes

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

I was going to make the comment there should never be downgrades, only upgrades but it was such a ridiculous concept because despite our own self righteousness, we still work for the man and gubmint gon do what gubmint do (screw us over)

 

[Seeyoufly]

When you factor in the NYC tours it’s not a huge difference. Also LGA has a curfew from 0000-0600 so I bet their hourly average is higher for TCI purposes

Your slowest hours don’t effect your TCI.

 

[rhombus]

Your slowest hours don’t effect your TCI.

I know. What I’m saying is LGA does slightly less numbers in 18 hours compared to what JFK does in 24 hours. I don’t have the hard data but I bet LGA averages more traffic per hour for TCI purposes (busiest 1830 hours)

 

[Acquired Taste]

JFK works way more traffic than LaGarbage.

LGA gets their 11 from the added complexity. They have 2 runways, compared to JFK's 4 and they're almost hitting gaps on intersecting runways unless the winds/flows to the other airports (I think) don't allow it.

Ground also blows because they don't have a lot of pavement to put planes.

 

[Termine]

Appendix A of the contract has JFK, EWR and LGA all sharing the highest level of the 3. Might be infuriating but it's being done as per the contract.

There's more nuance than that. I'm copying this from a comment I made... on this exact thread... eleven months ago.

Metropolitan Tower Complex – Two (2) or more airport traffic control terminals that provide traffic advisories, spacing, sequencing, and separation services to VFR and IFR aircraft operating in Class B airspace within the vicinity of the airport using a combination of radar and direct observations. These airport traffic control terminals must serve separate Large Hub Airports located in a major metropolitan area and independently be within one (1) facility pay level of each other. Additionally, each airport must be located within fifteen (15) nautical miles (center of airport to center of airport), and have traffic flows that have to be closely coordinated between facilities such that the operational configuration of one (1) airport affects the operational configuration of the other(s).

Traffic Count Index (TCI) – A combined measure of the complexity of the air traffic and the sustained traffic index at each facility. It is the measure used to set facility pay levels. For a Metropolitan Tower Complex, the Traffic Count Index for each airport traffic control terminal facility is calculated independently, and the pay level of the Complex is set based on the highest independently calculated TCI.

JFK is is nine miles from LGA, and LGA is fourteen miles from EWR. However JFK is eighteen miles from EWR. Additionally I know that LGA/JFK runway selection are heavily dependent on each other but I don't know if EWR is affected as much. I would assume yes, though.

So provided JFK and LGA are independently calculated to be within one FPL of each other, each facility's FPL is set to the higher one. Most likely this is true for EWR and LGA as well. For example, this could be true:

• EWR TCI is 10.
• LGA TCI is 11.
• JFK TCI is 10.
• Because EWR is a "metro tower complex" with LGA, and because EWR is within one level of LGA, EWR is set to an 11.
• Because JFK is a "metro tower complex" with LGA, and because JFK is within one level of LGA, JFK is set to an 11.

Now in the (made-up example) case where EWR is 11, LGA is 10, and JFK is 9, it shouldn't be true that JFK would commutatively be set to match EWR's 11, because EWR and JFK are too far apart to be considered part of the same metro tower complex. Instead JFK should be set to match LGA's independently calculated 10, while LGA would be set to 11 to match EWR. But I would not at all be surprised to hear that they just lump all three together and call it a day.

It does kind of make you wonder why they didn't make the distance requirement 20NM instead of 15NM, though, right? I mean, they had surveying tools and distance calculators back when they negotiated the complexity formula.

 

[CoffeeIV]

LGA averages way less traffic when I looked at the site last night. Ill look again at the TCIP site when Im at work. ATADS shows JFK working 470,664 ops in 2022 and LGA working 423,991.

Also part of the NYC thing is probably to keep controllers trying to jump between towers for pay raises. Oh you check out at JFK who is a 10 like some of you imply, now you go transfer to EWR get the 11 raise. Transfer back to JFK. JFK one day gets upgraded, boom another 6% raise. Transfer back to EWR or LGA when they're close to upgrading for another pay raise. Or some variation of this without ever having to move.

 

[rhombus]

LGA averages way less traffic when I looked at the site last night. Ill look again at the TCIP site when Im at work. ATADS shows JFK working 470,664 ops in 2022 and LGA working 423,991.

Also part of the NYC thing is probably to keep controllers trying to jump between towers for pay raises. Oh you check out at JFK who is a 10 like some of you imply, now you go transfer to EWR get the 11 raise. Transfer back to JFK. JFK one day gets upgraded, boom another 6% raise. Transfer back to EWR or LGA when they're close to upgrading for another pay raise. Or some variation of this without ever having to move.

It's important to note that LGA works essentially zero traffic from midnight to 6 am. JFK is a massive international cargo hub and works traffic through the night. They're doing 11% less traffic (in 2022) in 25% less hours. That math dictates that you're going to have busier hours on average at LGA than you will have at JFK. And that has an effect on the complexity formula.

 

[rhombus]

LGA gets their 11 from the added complexity. They have 2 runways, compared to JFK's 4 and they're almost hitting gaps on intersecting runways unless the winds/flows to the other airports (I think) don't allow it.

Ground also blows because they don't have a lot of pavement to put planes.

They both get the crossing runway multiplier. And sadly there isn't anything in the formula that directly accounts for GC difficulty.

 

[Krag]

Speaking of GC difficulty, how many of you at Core-30s control pushbacks? I know a lot have ramp control. Some at my facility think we're getting shafted on complexity when we're doing the ramps job.

 

[J8ke]

It does kind of make you wonder why they didn't make the distance requirement 20NM instead of 15NM, though, right? I mean, they had surveying tools and distance calculators back when they negotiated the complexity formula.

I've actually heard that this is being looked into.
Proposed change is something like:
Within 15 NM you get X modifier
Only within 20 NM? You get .5x modifier.
So the closer you are the higher the modifier.

Speaking of GC difficulty, how many of you at Core-30s control pushbacks? I know a lot have ramp control. Some at my facility think we're getting shafted on complexity when we're doing the ramps job.

DCA controls pushbacks for all 60+ gates. Only one ground control position. Almost half push onto an active taxiway or block access to part of the airport.

New TCIs and break points definitely need to take into account Ground Complexity. I could go on and on about this

 

[Nothanks]

Speaking of GC difficulty, how many of you at Core-30s control pushbacks? I know a lot have ramp control. Some at my facility think we're getting shafted on complexity when we're doing the ramps job.

Can someone explain this process and the differences between different types of operations?

 

[RalphBeast]

They both get the crossing runway multiplier. And sadly there isn't anything in the formula that directly accounts for GC difficulty.

This is total bunk, all high level towers do high ops but the differences in GC difficulty can be insane (LAX, ORD vs Denver)

 

[rhombus]

This is total bunk, all high level towers do high ops but the differences in GC difficulty can be insane (LAX, ORD vs Denver)

Absolutely. It usually boils down to how much space you have available. Don’t see why they can’t incorporate commercial ops/movement area square footage and have some sort of multiplier for that.