Facility Downgrades / Upgrades

RomeoTangoRT said:

You have facilities like ATL and ORD who do a milli plus ops and rightfully deserve their own level but are a 12 nonetheless. Yet still you have facilities like… MIA who are also a 12 😬 Miami is a scam and I’m unapologetic of my stance.

Wasn't MIA at one point a combined operation, meaning every CPC had to certify in the tower and TRACON? That's very respectable IMO and merits level 12 pay despite both being maybe lvl 10s as standalones facilities.

LAX, ORD, C90, N90 (EWR, JFK, LGA areas), A80, ATL are probably the best contenders to be lvl 13s if there ever was one created.

MSP being an 11 for so long compared to the beasts above was a total joke.

It'd be great if areas at Zs (where I work) were evened out as well. Some areas are a total joke and fat staffed while others are basically pushing high volume non-stop traffic and to make matter even better, usually short staffed.

RalphBeast said:

Wasn't MIA at one point a combined operation, meaning every CPC had to certify in the tower and TRACON? That's very respectable IMO and merits level 12 pay despite both being maybe lvl 10s as standalones facilities.

LAX, ORD, C90, N90 (EWR, JFK, LGA areas), A80, ATL are probably the best contenders to be lvl 13s if there ever was one created.

MSP being an 11 for so long compared to the beasts above was a total joke.

It'd be great if areas at Zs (where I work) were evened out as well. Some areas are a total joke and fat staffed while others are basically pushing high volume non-stop traffic and to make matter even better, usually short staffed.

LAX has always been scraping the bottom of a 12 and they've been below the buffer straight through since 2019

RalphBeast said:

Wasn't MIA at one point a combined operation, meaning every CPC had to certify in the tower and TRACON? That's very respectable IMO and merits level 12 pay despite both being maybe lvl 10s as standalones facilities.

LAX, ORD, C90, N90 (EWR, JFK, LGA areas), A80, ATL are probably the best contenders to be lvl 13s if there ever was one created.

MSP being an 11 for so long compared to the beasts above was a total joke.

It'd be great if areas at Zs (where I work) were evened out as well. Some areas are a total joke and fat staffed while others are basically pushing high volume non-stop traffic and to make matter even better, usually short staffed.

MIA, PHL and CLT are still high level up downs. STL was too (an 11 at that), until twa went away. You get put on a side. One works all the tower positions and departures. The other works departures and arrivals, no tower. AZO is still that way too despite taking all the non Detroit, non ZMP Michigan radars . CLT and MIA are 12s. But phl is only a 11

RalphBeast said:

Wasn't MIA at one point a combined operation, meaning every CPC had to certify in the tower and TRACON? That's very respectable IMO and merits level 12 pay despite both being maybe lvl 10s as standalones facilities.

LAX, ORD, C90, N90 (EWR, JFK, LGA areas), A80, ATL are probably the best contenders to be lvl 13s if there ever was one created.

MSP being an 11 for so long compared to the beasts above was a total joke.

It'd be great if areas at Zs (where I work) were evened out as well. Some areas are a total joke and fat staffed while others are basically pushing high volume non-stop traffic and to make matter even better, usually short staffed.

They also won’t do different pay levels at one facility on principle. That question, among others killed the long ago plan for the Chicago Milwaukee Rockford south bend (plus others maybe) metroplex mega tracon.

Can’t believe there are now pages and pages of apparently serious posts on this.

The idea that the union would do something as transformational as totally redesigning TCI count when they didn’t even bother to negotiate with “the most labor friendly administration in history” lol.

FightingIrish2012 said:

Can’t believe there are now pages and pages of apparently serious posts on this.

The idea that the union would do something as transformational as totally redesigning TCI count when they didn’t even bother to negotiate with “the most labor friendly administration in history” lol.

They don’t even bother to do the current count.

RalphBeast said:

Wasn't MIA at one point a combined operation, meaning every CPC had to certify in the tower and TRACON? That's very respectable IMO and merits level 12 pay despite both being maybe lvl 10s as standalones facilities.

LAX, ORD, C90, N90 (EWR, JFK, LGA areas), A80, ATL are probably the best contenders to be lvl 13s if there ever was one created.

MSP being an 11 for so long compared to the beasts above was a total joke.

It'd be great if areas at Zs (where I work) were evened out as well. Some areas are a total joke and fat staffed while others are basically pushing high volume non-stop traffic and to make matter even better, usually short staffed.

For 2022, the top 10 busiest towers (in order) in the NAS looking at total Tower Ops were ATL, ORD, DFW, DEN, LAS, LAX, CLT, EWR, JFK, and MIA.

The top 10 busiest TRACONs (in order) in the NAS looking at total TRACON ops were SCT, N90, NCT, PCT, D10, MIA, C90, A80, D01 and I90.

I know MIA, CLT, and PHL split into 2 areas but just not sure how it's done exactly. I know one area is only TRACON and one area is Tower with some of the TRACON but again not sure exactly how each split up. I think MIA and CLT definitely deserve their 12's and PHL makes sense as an 11 (for now).

You can go to the NATCA site and find the scoping document for ABACUS (circa 2016). In the appendix of the scoping document are several proposals for both terminal and en route.
DOCUMENTS > CONTRACTS AND MOUS > 2016 SLATE BOOK > NATIONAL MOUS > APPENDIX A SCOPING DOCUMENT

With the rollout of ABACUS (estimated 1-2 yrs from now:rolleyes:), the traffic count formula and breakpoints all have a significant chance of being renegotiated and changing. If your facility currently goes above and beyond in some way but doesn't get credit for it, now is the time to start making it known. Get in the ear of your facrep / traffic count rep and make sure they're getting in the ear of the NVT.

PHL been below the buffer for 7 months. We all know they will never get downgraded. Special rules for special places.

boots said:

PHL been below the buffer for 7 months. We all know they will never get downgraded. Special rules for special places.

They might be at risk now, they were holding as is because they were banking on the N90 thing eventually happening.

ZJX was #2, right below #1 ZTL last year. And some level 12s worked half the traffic ZJX did. Who wouldn’t be upset? abacASS

tylertrend said:

LAX has always been scraping the bottom of a 12 and they've been below the buffer straight through since 2019

South ground at LAX is deserving of lvl 12 pay alone. Also doesn't factor into account complexity.

Wonder if historical training time and success rates should be considered at some point. Denver and DFW towers have very high success rates and low training time, compared to LAX or ORD which are far lower and train twice as longer.

Success rate and training time should have nothing to do with it... too many arbitrary variables.

Where can we go to see the list of Downgrades/Upgrades?

Acquired Taste said:

Aap.faa.gov on a work pc. Scroll down on the bottom right and click TCIP

MMKAY2039 said:

Where can we go to see the list of Downgrades/Upgrades?

Reference above.

RalphBeast said:

South ground at LAX is deserving of lvl 12 pay alone. Also doesn't factor into account complexity.

Wonder if historical training time and success rates should be considered at some point. Denver and DFW towers have very high success rates and low training time, compared to LAX or ORD which are far lower and train twice as longer.

LAX going to ATC-11 July 16. Won’t impact pay for anyone there, but a drop of about 12k a year for anyone coming in to the bottom of the band. 4th busiest in the world by 2023 YTD pax count but the total ops are down a lot.

BigEggplant said:

LAX going to ATC-11 July 16. Won’t impact pay for anyone there, but a drop of about 12k a year for anyone coming in to the bottom of the band. 4th busiest in the world by 2023 YTD pax count but the total ops are down a lot.

I don't believe the difference between level 11 and level 12 is 12k a year. I remember it being less than 7k a year difference. Unless something has changed

ATCNOMAD said:

I don't believe the difference between level 11 and level 12 is 12k a year. I remember it being less than 7k a year difference. Unless something has changed

Bottom of the band with no locality is $5,826 difference
Top of the band with no locality is $7,864 difference.

Per the FAA ATSPP pay chart.

In SFO's case, there will be an $8,399 difference in bottom of the band between 11 and 12. Level 10/11/12 all have the same top of the band max of $212,100 (which I don't understand) then a drop of $24,852 to a max of $187,248 at level 9.

CoffeeIV said:

Bottom of the band with no locality is $5,826 difference
Top of the band with no locality is $7,864 difference.

Per the FAA ATSPP pay chart.

In SFO's case, there will be an $8,399 difference in bottom of the band between 11 and 12. Level 10/11/12 all have the same top of the band max of $212,100 (which I don't understand) then a drop of $24,852 to a max of $187,248 at level 9.

212.1k is the top of the SES2 band which is how ATCs are limited. The GS scale is stuck at 183k even after overtime limited by the SES4.

Redacted said:

212.1k is the top of the SES2 band which is how ATCs are limited. The GS scale is stuck at 183k even after overtime limited by the SES4.

Yeah I know the limitations we have I just though it was crazy how level 10 can hit 212,100 but you get downgraded to a 9 and you drop $24k. Usually each step down is only like 10k at most I thought. Not that big of a deal, just thought it was mildly interesting.

CoffeeIV said:

Yeah I know the limitations we have I just though it was crazy how level 10 can hit 212,100 but you get downgraded to a 9 and you drop $24k. Usually each step down is only like 10k at most I thought. Not that big of a deal, just thought it was mildly interesting.

For whatever reason the 9-10 jump is a 15% raise. 10-11 and 11-12 are about 5 % jumps. All the other jumps at about 10% except for 4-5 which is about 14%.