Newark PHL Radar Failure Pt 2.

[32andBelow]

It’s not that the radar site is going out, the entire data stream is failing - so no fusion, but also no single site from a backup radar, no center radars, and no ADSB. It’s the equivalent of pulling all the plugs out from the back of the STARS console.

Yah if we lose our radar it goes to a single site backup and we can choose ADSB as the source if we want.

 

[DankVectorz]

The first time it went out last week the entire scope just went blank. The first time today it started glitching where the refresh rate went from 1 second to 7-10 seconds. Later in the afternoon data tags started to drop off as well as the glitching. The scopes at N90 show everything running normal. This isn’t a radar issue, it’s the connection between N90 and PHL. Even going ESL doesn’t help.

 

[Wizard]

Is it 7 seconds or 30 like OP stated? Should be banned for posting misinformation if true.

 

[PlasticBag12]

Is it 7 seconds or 30 like OP stated? Should be banned for posting misinformation if true.

Doesn’t matter. If the controllers working the positions are used to a certain refresh rate and that refresh rate doesn’t exist, or fails, it controls how the controller works the position. Yeah most are trained on equipment failures, but failures shouldn’t happen regularly. We are air traffic controllers not air traffic reactors. The ones that plug in and control traffic need to control the traffic from known functions with LOAs with other facilities, and not react to situations from unknown mishaps for all aircraft inbound to an airport. Especially international arrivals. This is some of the busiest airspace in the NAS.

 

[Geeare27]

Is it 7 seconds or 30 like OP stated? Should be banned for posting misinformation if true.

If there was a Dislike react, I would proudly stamp it on every post you've ever made here lol

 

[DankVectorz]

Is it 7 seconds or 30 like OP stated? Should be banned for posting misinformation if true.

I only worked the first glitch this morning. It definitely wasn’t 30 second refresh rate. It sure FELT like 30 seconds, but it reminded me of a single sensor long range radar from my AF days. I’d say 5-7 second refresh rate. Even my first post where I said 10 seconds isn’t really accurate. I don’t know if this was different in the afternoon outages. It lasted probably 5-10 minutes before returning to normal. I was able to work the traffic I had with my main concern and expectation being that I was going to lose my screen at any time so I started shipping guys to the next freq even before radar was taken and stopped all departures.

 

[KP-ATC]

 

[bravounite33]

It’s not that the radar site is going out, the entire data stream is failing - so no fusion, but also no single site from a backup radar, no center radars, and no ADSB. It’s the equivalent of pulling all the plugs out from the back of the STARS console.

The first time it went out last week the entire scope just went blank. The first time today it started glitching where the refresh rate went from 1 second to 7-10 seconds. Later in the afternoon data tags started to drop off as well as the glitching. The scopes at N90 show everything running normal. This isn’t a radar issue, it’s the connection between N90 and PHL. Even going ESL doesn’t help.

Any idea if the FAA is planning on getting PHL a direct feed from the radar? Or at the VERY least getting an ADSB feed? It's mind boggling to me (but also not surprising knowing this FAA) that the backups are basically nonexistent at this high level of a facility with this much importance to the NAS as a whole.

 

[jdatc]

View attachment 9744

The problem is the amount of people who won’t know that reference. That’s how I know I am old.

However I also like this one, for when it was ‘fixed’

 

[SquawkHijack]

Why can’t they work though that for a short time? The center radars update every 12 seconds or so, often a mile at a time.

Because we aren’t looking at 200 miles of airspace and don’t have time to pause our Netflix series before we key up to fix a conflict. Shit happens a lot faster in the terminal world, hence why fused ASR gives 1 second updates for us. That can be a godsend for a final controller.

Why is NATCA not addressing and rebutting this 804 in the name of bad political moves, safety and public trust by the primary stakeholder of the NAS? (This question is rhetorical.)

 

[DankVectorz]

Any idea if the FAA is planning on getting PHL a direct feed from the radar?

Supposedly yes and pretty soon but don’t know how accurate that actually is

 

[corn4ahead]

Because we aren’t looking at 200 miles of airspace and don’t have time to pause our Netflix series before we key up to fix a conflict. Shit happens a lot faster in the terminal world, hence why fused ASR gives 1 second updates for us. That can be a godsend for a final controller.

I remember when we went from single site to Fusion and it was an incredible difference. I am now at a Z and waiting 10-12 seconds feels like forever. The biggest difference is you can turn airplanes on dime in the terminal world and that doesnt happen as easily in the Z world. Also, waiting for an update can feel like watching paint dry. Terminal is objectively better for sure but it's definitely not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[SquawkHijack]

I remember when we aent from single site to Fusion and it was an incredible difference. I am now at a Z and waiting 10-12 seconds feels like forever. The biggest difference is you can turn airplanes on dime in the terminal world and that doesnt happen as easily in the Z world. Also, waiting for an update can feel like watching paint dry. Terminal is objectively better for sure but it's definitely not an apples to apples comparison.

Well sure, but I was just responding to a question asking why the EWR area can’t just work with what they have because en-route does something like it all the time.

 

[NOVA]

Well sure, but I was just responding to a question asking why the EWR area can’t just work with what they have because en-route does something like it all the time.

How many 6 mile gaps are you hitting on final at your Z?

 

[SquawkHijack]

How many 6 mile gaps are you hitting on final at your Z?

Read what I said again. Someone at a Z just asked why they [EWR] can’t work with what they have and I was explaining to them why. Hell scroll up and look. You’re misunderstanding me for someone else here I’m a terminal guy.

 

[CaptainObvious]

How many 6 mile gaps are you hitting on final at your Z?

Plenty.

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

How many 6 mile gaps are you hitting on final at your Z?

On purpose or accidentally?

 

[KP-ATC]

Plenty.

At a Z, you have two airplanes 6 miles in trail and put a third exactly in the middle of them?

 

[CaptainObvious]

At a Z, you have two airplanes 6 miles in trail and put a third exactly in the middle of them?

Not all Zs have strictly 5 mile separation, so yes.

 

[Deuce]

Not all Zs have strictly 5 mile separation, so yes.

But in a much more real sense, no