LGA Accident

[Mike Kilo]

It’s too early to speculate on this stuff. While I agree standalone can be stupid this is probably the way the controllers work it regularly. I don’t imagine they have a requirement for standalone at 11:40pm at night but anything is possible. Most places I’ve worked this would have been combined to one person for an hour already lol.

I’m seeing talk of a previous emergency and even if there was a standalone CIC they were probably dealing with that which would be normal for their responsibilities. MORs and coordinating with paramedics or the ramp etc.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Isn't Pro Standards peer to peer? So a controller can't take a supe to PS.

You aren't taking anyone. It is a mediated mutual discussion. I've seen it used at my facility for poor performance, fist fights, 1.5 hr breaks, phones on position, parking in handicap spots

 

[SquawkHijack]

That’s what happens when you get supervisors who come to a 12 Tracon from 5 up/down, only have to get pencil whipped in one position and have no fucking clue what is going on. Had a supervisor yesterday doing a skill check and had to keep asking the trainer if they were doing it right. wtf is that?

That’s because ATC in general has historically had “leaders” or management above us that absolutely cannot separate two flies with a screen door, this includes the military. Theoretically supes should have just about as much skills as we do minus a bit since they don’t work position hardly. But instead the agency will fill any OS spot with a warm body of their choosing and couldn’t care less how effective that person may or may not be. This is all such a numbers game that this is what we have and nobody cares unless something happens that makes the news.

 

[ATOH]

This is all speculative right now without hard facts so take it for what it’s worth. The facts I can see are

1. Controller is working both Ground and Local combined dealing with a very busy airport despite it being very late at night. Hell the United emergency couldn’t even get a gate because they were that full.

2. Sean Duffey confirmed in his press briefing today that the controller was not the only one in the tower. Looking back to fact 1 this leads me to believe the 2nd person in the tower was a standalone CIC. Which has been a policy push for the last year. This clearly is a stupid and inadequate policy because the possible standalone CIC not only did not catch the mistake, they took very little off the combined controllers extremely busy plate. Had ground been combined to CIC and they only worked that traffic it’s very possible this mistake never occurred, if everything I’m assuming from audio are the facts.

Been screaming this at my facility for a few years now and have ATSAP'd it multiple times. Combining positions to have Standalone CIC is stupid.

 

[Bandit117]

Also what happens when people jump to be supervisors with 3 years in the agency for the pay raise and have zero fucking skills at running a shift. Which usually deviates from CPC numbers. And when supervisor are as complacent as possible because there's never any discipline for them being dog shit

I don’t like it but I also understand that for some, the writing is on the wall. If you’re years away from even getting enough trainees who have yet to be hired in order to maybe certify them so that you might have a chance to play the ncept lottery (along with 20 others who are also stuck at your low level first facility with you), I get applying for supe jobs. No one will look out for you but you.

The agency higher ups literally believe that more supes = more safer. Because of that, they will hire anyone with a pulse, from anywhere, to be a supe anywhere else, no matter how dangerously unqualified or insultingly junior they are. I still have yet to see where in the national training order it says that supes get a performative checkout, to a lower standard but it happens every day and we all know it. Yet the agency will say, with a straight face, placing someone in a vacant supe job is proactively making the NAS safer.

Good supes can make a facility great. Bad supes can make a good facility into a shithole. I’m sick of seeing people with a year and a day of CPC time going off on supe bids. If the agency really wants supes who actually know enough to run a safe operation, make it a minimum 5 to 10 years of CPC time before you can bid. No “supe checkouts”. No level 5 tower only to major tracon supes. But they don’t want that. They want sycophants who will get on their knees and do exactly what the district says without question or hesitation. They want yes-men. And that is something that doesn’t belong in an organization that claims to put safety first.

 

[32andBelow]

I don’t like it but I also understand that for some, the writing is on the wall. If you’re years away from even getting enough trainees who have yet to be hired in order to maybe certify them so that you might have a chance to play the ncept lottery (along with 20 others who are also stuck at your low level first facility with you), I get applying for supe jobs. No one will look out for you but you.

The agency higher ups literally believe that more supes = more safer. Because of that, they will hire anyone with a pulse, from anywhere, to be a supe anywhere else, no matter how dangerously unqualified or insultingly junior they are. I still have yet to see where in the national training order it says that supes get a performative checkout, to a lower standard but it happens every day and we all know it.

Good supes can make a facility great. Bad supes can make a good facility into a shithole. I’m sick of seeing people with a year and a day of CPC time going off on supe bids. If the agency really wants supes who actually know enough to run a safe operation, make it a minimum 5 to 10 years of CPC time before you can bid. No “supe checkouts”. No level 5 tower only to major tracon supes. But they don’t want that. They want sycophants who will get on their knees and do exactly what the district says without question or hesitation. They want yes-men. And that is something that doesn’t belong in an organization that claims to put safety first.

I feel 100x better with a CIC or as CIC in the center. If something goes down the CIC can actually plug in and start helping customers they are actually you know certified in the position.

 

[DankVectorz]

But instead the agency will fill any OS spot with a warm body of their choosing and couldn’t care less how effective that person may or may not be.

If this PHL EWR move has taught me anything, it’s that the FAA just wants management who does what they’re told, not ones who try to take initiative. From FLM up.

Also that what I assumed was weaponized incompetence from command center is in fact just plain ole incompetence.

 

[GulfCharlie]

If this PHL EWR move has taught me anything, it’s that the FAA just wants management who does what they’re told, not ones who try to take initiative. From FLM up.

Also that what I assumed was weaponized incompetence from command center is in fact just plain ole incompetence.

Some serious facts here.

 

[Phillytroll69]

If this PHL EWR move has taught me anything, it’s that the FAA just wants management who does what they’re told, not ones who try to take initiative. From FLM up.

Also that what I assumed was weaponized incompetence from command center is in fact just plain ole incompetence.

I will reference my previous comment.
Who is releasable?
The guy at a level 12 understaffed facility a that took 3 years to pass and an effton of man hours...

OR

The guy that failed same facility a, checked out at level 5 facility b, and now wants to be sup at facility a?

This is a real thing that happens all the time. The "success" at a low level facility might not equate-but the availability is there. Why the union has any say in deviations for sup positions is beyond me.

 

[32andBelow]

New conference.

Fire truck had no transponder
No CA
They aren’t sure who was working ground

 

[Move78]

This is a real thing that happens all the time. The "success" at a low level facility might not equate-but the availability is there. Why the union has any say in deviations for sup positions is beyond me.

They don’t

 

[GulfCharlie]

New conference.

Fire truck had no transponder
No CA
They aren’t sure who was working ground

They know who was working ground.

 

[32andBelow]

They know who was working ground.

just saying what she said.

 

[Phillytroll69]

They don’t

Oh I thought the numbers were negotiated

 

[SquawkHijack]

Been screaming this at my facility for a few years now and have ATSAP'd it multiple times. Combining positions to have Standalone CIC is stupid.

It’s one of many band-aids to let managers ignore the staffing issue(s) they refuse to acknowledge in good faith or fix.

 

[SunnyATC]

I will reference my previous comment.
Who is releasable?
The guy at a level 12 understaffed facility a that took 3 years to pass and an effton of man hours...

OR

The guy that failed same facility a, checked out at level 5 facility b, and now wants to be sup at facility a?

This is a real thing that happens all the time. The "success" at a low level facility might not equate-but the availability is there. Why the union has any say in deviations for sup positions is beyond me.

Yeah they went away from any sort of meritocracy in promoting controllers to Sups and NCEPT. If you could get released there was very little competition. Passed over tons of people who were better candidates for busier facilities. My facility had some internal candidates for multiple Sup jobs and they were passed over for 1 year low level wonders who are now in charge.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Yeah they went away from any sort of meritocracy in promoting controllers to Sups and NCEPT. If you could get released there was very little competition. Passed over tons of people who were better candidates for busier facilities. My facility had some internal candidates for multiple Sup jobs and they were passed over for 1 year low level wonders who are now in charge.

Every facility has at least one sup that could not plug in and run a position at 35% volume.

 

[+TSRA]

Every facility has at least one sup that could not plug in and run a position at 35% volume.

That's a very true fact. Funny thing, at my facility, that means 50% of the sups fall into that category. The other 50% have terrible phraseology, nervous, and astonishingly poor customer service - I think it's because they are scared. Nonetheless, that's acceptable by the other management people that "promoted" him/her.

 

[Shikaka]

The worst is that there is no body that is willing to make the statement public at how supes are in fact not controllers.

They sent supes to DCA thinking it would make it better, and the public opinion is that they're higher quality controllers.

 

[DankVectorz]

The worst is that there is no body that is willing to make the statement public at how supes are in fact not controllers.

They sent supes to DCA thinking it would make it better, and the public opinion is that they're higher quality controllers.

Have to explain to pilot friends all the time that the only qualification to become a supervisor is to apply for it. It is not a meritorious promotion.