FAA Reauthorization Act of 2023

[MJ]

During the 2016 senate hearings Jim Jordan asked point blank “are we not paying these guys enough?” and I don’t remember Rinaldi taking that opportunity to address potential increase in salaries. Could be wrong but regardless I was hoping to see increased salaries in this act.

Did a google search and couldn’t find much that seemed legit but found one list that ranked US 8th for ATC salaries with Spain, Ireland, and Germany top 3 in 2020.

If we're thinking about the same thing, it wasn't rinaldi it was Terri Bristol, the old FAA COO

 

[HurryUpandWait]

If we're thinking about the same thing, it wasn't rinaldi it was Terri Bristol, the old FAA COO

We are but both of them were on the panel and I remember watching it wanting Rinaldi to capitalize on it and he never did because they were more worried about staffing during the hearing

 

[ATCNOMAD]

A couple? of years ago, facilities were accepting the USAF "pink card" and our paperwork from our technical school at Keesler AFB as a "CTO." This bypassed the silly Tower class at OKC. But now, that isn't the case, and the two guys that just went couldn't use it.

That was the case off all ATC branches of the military, not just air force. But yes, as you said it isn't the case anymore

It's not useless

As an OTS hire, I learned a lot there. I am not an aviation dork.. It's hard to retain it all, but it's better than nothing. They just need to wash more people out at the academy. They could stand to wash a good 20-30% more people out, as could my own facility...

What would arbitrary washing out 20%-30% more people do. Sounds like a horrible idea

 

[Bandit117]

What would arbitrary washing out 20%-30% more people do. Sounds like a horrible idea

I don’t think he’s talking about arbitrarily. Maybe 60% of academy grads certify at their first facility, you cut the bottom 20-30% through higher standards and you save a lot of money in wasted training expenses.

 

[Raise when?]

What would arbitrary washing out 20%-30% more people do. Sounds like a horrible idea

You’d get a lot less terrible controllers, that’s my estimate of how many could easily wash these days. Dunno bout your area, my area just checks people out lol they want seniority lines…

 

[Mr.Tickles]

You’d get a lot less terrible controllers, that’s my estimate of how many could easily wash these days. Dunno bout your area, my area just checks people out lol they want seniority lines…

How much of that is bad trainees though? Surely some of it is bad trainers? The faa expects everyone to train and some have absolutely no business being trainers. I’ve not been around long enough to see large numbers of trainees to compare but I’ve seen plenty of bad trainers.

 

[Bandit117]

You’d get a lot less terrible controllers, that’s my estimate of how many could easily wash these days. Dunno bout your area, my area just checks people out lol they want seniority lines…

They need seniority lines. Everywhere does. It’s the conundrum of facing being critically undermanned or certifying whatever room-temp IQ trainee the faa sent you this week. You won’t get anyone else for a while you so have to choose carefully.

How much of that is bad trainees though? Surely some of it is bad trainers? The faa expects everyone to train and some have absolutely no business being trainers. I’ve not been around long enough to see large numbers of trainees to compare but I’ve seen plenty of bad trainers.

It’s probably 75% bad trainees and 25% bad trainers. I have never seen someone wash solely becuase of bad trainers. If anything, I’ve seen people be more lenient and try to get more resources for people stuck with them because they know they had bad trainers and they feel bad, and they knew they aren’t getting the fair shot they deserve. It works out in the end.

I’ve seen bad trainers have a meltdown because the trainee didn’t have their permission to be certified and the supe did it anyways because they were ready according to everyone else in the building. That trainee did get jacked around in training a bit longer, but then saved the trainer from an ugly deal later on in the quarter.

Outside of exceptional circumstances, in the end it will all work out. If you have the skill, knowledge and work ethic it will get out and bad trainers won’t be more than a speed bump along your road to certification.

 

[32andBelow]

In the current environment you’ll be passed around to like 3 different training teams before they’ll wash you out.

 

[CaptainObvious]

In the current environment you’ll be passed around to like 3 different training teams before they’ll wash you out.

Facts.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Facts.

3 tries to get it right I guess imagine if ojti had more than a 3 day class

 

[32andBelow]

3 tries to get it right I guess imagine if ojti had more than a 3 day class

Point is no one is washing out cus of a bad trainer

 

[Raise when?]

How much of that is bad trainees though? Surely some of it is bad trainers? The faa expects everyone to train and some have absolutely no business being trainers. I’ve not been around long enough to see large numbers of trainees to compare but I’ve seen plenty of bad trainers.

It’s both. I’ve seen such a steep drop off in personal work ethic, though. Our trainees just don’t care.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Point is no one is washing out cus of a bad trainer

I feel the inverse is also true, because of bad trainers no one is washing out. But you're only on 3 training teams so why have the sup do skill checks and stufd

 

[ATCNOMAD]

You’d get a lot less terrible controllers, that’s my estimate of how many could easily wash these days. Dunno bout your area, my area just checks people out lol they want seniority lines…

My area just washed someone out and my facility in general has washed out a lot recently. I don't think washing more people out is a good idea. I think giving more hours to train is the hest idea. Yes some people aren't cut out for the job and could get a million hours and still be horrible. But some trainees just need more time. I don't think being a slow learner should cause you to wash. At the same time I do agree there has to he a standard. If one is under the standard they wash. But if more time can get them there fuck the max hour limit

 

[ATCNOMAD]

I don’t think he’s talking about arbitrarily. Maybe 60% of academy grads certify at their first facility, you cut the bottom 20-30% through higher standards and you save a lot of money in wasted training expenses.

I think it jumps to around 75% when you add them making it at their 2nd facility. You don't automatically lose your job if you wash at your 1st facility

 

[32andBelow]

My area just washed someone out and my facility in general has washed out a lot recently. I don't think washing more people out is a good idea. I think giving more hours to train is the hest idea. Yes some people aren't cut out for the job and could get a million hours and still be horrible. But some trainees just need more time. I don't think being a slow learner should cause you to wash. At the same time I do agree there has to he a standard. If one is under the standard they wash. But if more time can get them there fuck the max hour limit

I think the hiring from McDonald’s and killing cti is really shinning through now

 

[ATCNOMAD]

I think the hiring from McDonald’s and killing cti is really shinning through now

I'd like your opinion on something. 15+ years ago late Green book early white book the academy was 1 PV evaluation pass or fail (2 for tower 1 gc 1 lc.) It wasn't scored. You were a go or no go. I remember getting to my facility and older controllers though that was too easy and there wasn't a lot of academy wash outs back then so I thought maybe they were right. Back then my whole class was CTI and ex military ATC.l and we all passed. Off the street was being reintroduced and there were some in my sister class. Then a few years later they started grading the academy and you needed a certain score out of multiple things being graded with your PV being a heavy part of the overall score. I feel like once that started the wash out rate started going up. But around then off the street became a higher number of new hires and CTI started going away. My question is do you think the old grading of 1 pass fail PV was to easy or where new hires just better candidates for the job back in that 2004-2008 time frame? It just seems crazy the academy wash out rate is so high now

 

[Raise when?]

My area just washed someone out and my facility in general has washed out a lot recently. I don't think washing more people out is a good idea. I think giving more hours to train is the hest idea. Yes some people aren't cut out for the job and could get a million hours and still be horrible. But some trainees just need more time. I don't think being a slow learner should cause you to wash. At the same time I do agree there has to he a standard. If one is under the standard they wash. But if more time can get them there fuck the max hour limit

Nah

Slow learners have lower ceilings. Sink or swim. The agency would be far stronger with this mentality. Less 12 month Cpc’s who jump to TMU, office jobs, and management because they’re trash and scared

 

[ATCNOMAD]

Nah

Slow learners have lower ceilings. Sink or swim. The agency would be far stronger with this mentality. Less 12 month Cpc’s who jump to TMU, office jobs, and management because they’re trash and scared

I've seen slow learners become very good controllers about a year after certification working on their own. That and someone has to fill those TMU office and management jobs lol

 

[32andBelow]

I'd like your opinion on something. 15+ years ago late Green book early white book the academy was 1 PV evaluation pass or fail (2 for tower 1 gc 1 lc.) It wasn't scored. You were a go or no go. I remember getting to my facility and older controllers though that was too easy and there wasn't a lot of academy wash outs back then so I thought maybe they were right. Back then my whole class was CTI and ex military ATC.l and we all passed. Off the street was being reintroduced and there were some in my sister class. Then a few years later they started grading the academy and you needed a certain score out of multiple things being graded with your PV being a heavy part of the overall score. I feel like once that started the wash out rate started going up. But around then off the street became a higher number of new hires and CTI started going away. My question is do you think the old grading of 1 pass fail PV was to easy or where new hires just better candidates for the job back in that 2004-2008 time frame? It just seems crazy the academy wash out rate is so high now

I think that the screen of applicants by making them go to a college program or the military got a group that’s as more invested and interested in becoming an ATC. While today you have people just YOLOing an application after reading about it on Reddit or Facebook