Actual pros/cons of moving to management

[32andBelow]

It’s nice when a sup can be monitoring a busy session and actually see a traffic conflict you might be missing.

 

[ATCJoe85]

I don't want anyone in charge of something that they can't do themselves.

Generally speaking (across a good portion of professions), people who are trained in management aren't necessarily able to perform the duties of the people they are in charge of. Their job isn't to perform the job, it's to manage the people who are performing the job.

As I stated above, I think it's reasonable to expect that an OS learn the operation and positions. But they have different tasks than a CPC, so I wouldn't expect them to be able to perform at the same level, nor would I think it should be a requirement.

Of course everyone has different expectations. One of my managers pushed through a supe after 3 weeks and not nearly enough training- to his disservice (since our supes often worked traffic). Another facility wanted their new supe to be able to perform at CPC level before giving him a recommend, but the manager told them that was too high an expectation since supes there rarely worked traffic.

It’s nice when a sup can be monitoring a busy session and actually see a traffic conflict you might be missing.

Certainly. Personally when I'm CIC I aim for this. I don't think you need to be able to CPC at any specific facility to be able to spot conflicts/issues. I did a fam once to a higher level and was catching issues left and right.

 

[Move78]

Depends on where you’re at and where the OS is at. Some raises into OS translate to little it no gross raise. Some do. In that case you get paid more to do less. This is a pro or a con depending on how lazy you actually are or how you feel about your current job. The worse you are at controlling the more likely it is for you to be living a stressful life. Scared of the scope, trying to avoid the busy sector, counting every minute, scamming off position etc. It’s also the only option for some people to free themselves from the release restrictions. There’s probably 5000 controllers that have little to no chance at moving via ERR and this will only compound as more people start to feel this coupled with the continuation of the Agency’s new hire placement process sending people where they don’t want to be.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I did a fam once to a higher level and was catching issues left and right.

I hope you let them know!

 

[CF]

I hope you let them know!

I always try to work the traffic of the controllers when I visit a facility I want to ERR to. They always say “hey thanks, man!”

 

[Stinger]

This is fair. You don't have to be able to work the push to have a general idea of what's going on.

Also, having only been certified in low and mid level facilities, maybe I have a disconnect here. At our lower level towers, it was often useful for our Supes to work LC even when it was busy so that training could be accomplished on GC/FD. At the mid-level, our supes were only ever really needed if we needed to split a position, and at that point the split positions weren't that complex. They sat on the desk, but paid only a little bit of attention to us. We typically brought it to their attention when something needed to be split, not the other way around. At the high level, it seems that OS rarely take position, but keep a close eye on things so that they can determine what to split, what to close, what to help coordinate, etc. Again, this doesn't mean they have to be able to work the heavy stuff, but they should be trained enough on the area and some positions to have a feel for the operation.

Effective May 1st, there was an update to the 3120.4R. Deals with number of positions that a supervisor has to certify on.
ARTCC: 1 radar position and 1 associate position.
9-12 TRACON: 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless it's got separate areas, then 2 control positions would be required.
9-12 up/down: 1 ground and 1 local plus 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless that tracon has separate areas then it's 2 control positions in the tracon again.
9-12 tower: 1 ground and 1 local.
8 and below terminal: full facility. Unless it's got multiple areas (like AZO) then 2 control positions in each area of supervision.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_JO_3120.153_Appx_K_D-F.pdf

 

[ATCJoe85]

I wasn't looking for thanks when I pushed them to the floor and took over their position.

Effective May 1st, there was an update to the 3120.4R. Deals with number of positions that a supervisor has to certify on.
ARTCC: 1 radar position and 1 associate position.
9-12 TRACON: 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless it's got separate areas, then 2 control positions would be required.
9-12 up/down: 1 ground and 1 local plus 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless that tracon has separate areas then it's 2 control positions in the tracon again.
9-12 tower: 1 ground and 1 local.
8 and below terminal: full facility. Unless it's got multiple areas (like AZO) then 2 control positions in each area of supervision.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_JO_3120.153_Appx_K_D-F.pdf

It seemed most supes at the high level I'm looking at had 1 or 2 positions at most before.

 

[Rico]

Effective May 1st, there was an update to the 3120.4R. Deals with number of positions that a supervisor has to certify on.
ARTCC: 1 radar position and 1 associate position.
9-12 TRACON: 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless it's got separate areas, then 2 control positions would be required.
9-12 up/down: 1 ground and 1 local plus 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless that tracon has separate areas then it's 2 control positions in the tracon again.
9-12 tower: 1 ground and 1 local.
8 and below terminal: full facility. Unless it's got multiple areas (like AZO) then 2 control positions in each area of supervision.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_JO_3120.153_Appx_K_D-F.pdf

This is a joke, and is going to hinder supervisors respect, if they had any.
Luckily it says a “minimum” required, so it can be negotiated to be higher.

 

[32andBelow]

This is a joke, and is going to hinder supervisors respect, if they had any.
Luckily it says a “minimum” required, so it can be negotiated to be higher.

It’s higher than it used to be tho…

 

[Phillytroll69]

Effective May 1st, there was an update to the 3120.4R. Deals with number of positions that a supervisor has to certify on.
ARTCC: 1 radar position and 1 associate position.
9-12 TRACON: 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless it's got separate areas, then 2 control positions would be required.
9-12 up/down: 1 ground and 1 local plus 1 arrival and 1 departure. Unless that tracon has separate areas then it's 2 control positions in the tracon again.
9-12 tower: 1 ground and 1 local.
8 and below terminal: full facility. Unless it's got multiple areas (like AZO) then 2 control positions in each area of supervision.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_JO_3120.153_Appx_K_D-F.pdf

I'm sure there's going to be a ton grandfathered in.
I sense a management shortage in 20 years when the level 5 tower can't come to the 11 and get ground

 

[32andBelow]

I'm sure there's going to be a ton grandfathered in.
I sense a management shortage in 20 years when the level 5 tower can't come to the 11 and get ground

They made ours start training to meet the new requirement

 

[ATCJoe85]

I'm sure there's going to be a ton grandfathered in.
I sense a management shortage in 20 years when the level 5 tower can't come to the 11 and get ground

Nah. Not until they require certifying on busy traffic.

 

[Stinger]

This is a joke, and is going to hinder supervisors respect, if they had any.
Luckily it says a “minimum” required, so it can be negotiated to be higher.

No negotiation required. If the ATM wants their brand new supervisor at F11 to certify throughout the building, then that's what will happen.
There's no TRB or timeline that is required, so if someone was in training for 5+ years, that's still allowed.

It’s higher than it used to be tho…

I'm not sure what it was before, but I know a 9 up/down where they certified throughout (like 13 total positions.)
Centers it's seemed like they've been doing 1 radar/associate for a long time now?

I'm sure there's going to be a ton grandfathered in.
I sense a management shortage in 20 years when the level 5 tower can't come to the 11 and get ground

It only impacts people that transfer and re-enter the training process at a new facility.

 

[N737ER]

Effective May 1st, there was an update to the 3120.4R. Deals with number of positions that a supervisor has to certify on.
ARTCC: 1 radar position and 1 associate position.

Hmmm Supes with only 2 D-Sides at a level 12 Z with only tower experience. This outta be interesting if not amusing

 

[Stinger]

Hmmm Supes with only 2 D-Sides at a level 12 Z with only tower experience. This outta be interesting if not amusing

They're exempt since they're already in the building.
"Exempt OS/STMC employees shall continue to operate under the previous set of minimum certification requirements as established by the ATM."

 

[Super Salt]

No negotiation required. If the ATM wants their brand new supervisor at F11 to certify throughout the building, then that's what will happen.
There's no TRB or timeline that is required, so if someone was in training for 5+ years, that's still allowed.

That you, DAB??

 

[Stinger]

That you, DAB??

Nah...I'd like to spend some time at F11 though.

 

[Super Salt]

Nah...I'd like to spend some time at F11 though.

Shit, you and me both. My reply was a joke on the fact that there was someone in training at DAB for 4 years. They very well may still be in training as I type this.

 

[32andBelow]

No negotiation required. If the ATM wants their brand new supervisor at F11 to certify throughout the building, then that's what will happen.
There's no TRB or timeline that is required, so if someone was in training for 5+ years, that's still allowed.


I'm not sure what it was before, but I know a 9 up/down where they certified throughout (like 13 total positions.)
Centers it's seemed like they've been doing 1 radar/associate for a long time now?

It only impacts people that transfer and re-enter the training process at a new facility.

Yah center you only needed 1 d side. You didn’t even need a radar cert. now you need 1 radar. But in a center they can usually just split off something that is super easy for them

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

Generally speaking (across a good portion of professions), people who are trained in management aren't necessarily able to perform the duties of the people they are in charge of. Their job isn't to perform the job, it's to manage the people who are performing the job.

This whole idea baffles me. ATC is the only job I’ve ever worked where my superiors aren’t qualified, and in some cases, aren’t even capable of performing job functions of the people they’re supposedly managing. My raises are dependent on evaluations from supervisors who aren’t qualified to be a D-Side on the position I’m currently working. The supes in my area only become D-side certified on the least complex positions in the area. I’ve seen supes who spend more time on Amazon shopping than working positions. It’s pretty difficult to respect that.