AG Swap

Academy Study Guides

hpwjuicebox

Active Member
Messages
48
Although I understand your point. As others have said, it is a moot point. Furthermore, just because said AG has not done anything in the FAA, does NOT mean they have not done anything ATC related before. A decent amount of AGs are prior experienced who have served in the military. Some of which have probably done far more than you and I.

The primary goal should be facility manning with the purpose of trying to put people where they want to go. Of course there will be some exceptions here and there, but one should at least try. And if the opportunity arises if a swap can be done then it should be allowed. Yes it is sad the previous person did not get what they want, in the end they can decide to try to ERR. Otherwise having the outlook of fucking people over just because it happened to previous people is a terrible way to look at things in general. I am all for taking care of your CPCs. And I do believe they should get a level of priority here. If CPC ERR requests are being denied for no reason then that is something you need to address. Instead of taking it out on the next guy...

Although I think ZLA would be a great location. I would prefer ZLC if anyone would like to transfer.
You want ZLC. What can you offer?
 

PlaneFlasher

Active Member
Messages
54
Well this ruffled some feathers. Happy to chat with him and he can let his class know. Feel free to DM me and I can give you his email to connect as well. It seems like ZOB and ZID are everyone's top choices for this class since they didn't get a great list (theme of 99% of class lists so far). Doesn't hurt to try though. :)

They were supposed to start evals today but they lucked out because of crap ice weather in OKC this week and they've been delayed until Tuesday (or even Wednesday depending on the snow over the weekend and early next week). It's a hot mess per usual but at least now they don't have to wait 3 days in between eval days.
The Oklahoma weather always comes through ?. Evaluators are going to be itching to get their fix.
 

sumtingwon

Member
Messages
79
You want ZLC. What can you offer?
sumtingwon said:
Although I understand your point. As others have said, it is a moot point. Furthermore, just because said AG has not done anything in the FAA, does NOT mean they have not done anything ATC related before. A decent amount of AGs are prior experienced who have served in the military. Some of which have probably done far more than you and I.

The primary goal should be facility manning with the purpose of trying to put people where they want to go. Of course there will be some exceptions here and there, but one should at least try. And if the opportunity arises if a swap can be done then it should be allowed. Yes it is sad the previous person did not get what they want, in the end they can decide to try to ERR. Otherwise having the outlook of fucking people over just because it happened to previous people is a terrible way to look at things in general. I am all for taking care of your CPCs. And I do believe they should get a level of priority here. If CPC ERR requests are being denied for no reason then that is something you need to address. Instead of taking it out on the next guy...

Although I think ZLA would be a great location. I would prefer ZLC if anyone would like to transfer.
 

asdf

Member
Messages
1
sumtingwon said:
Although I understand your point. As others have said, it is a moot point. Furthermore, just because said AG has not done anything in the FAA, does NOT mean they have not done anything ATC related before. A decent amount of AGs are prior experienced who have served in the military. Some of which have probably done far more than you and I.

The primary goal should be facility manning with the purpose of trying to put people where they want to go. Of course there will be some exceptions here and there, but one should at least try. And if the opportunity arises if a swap can be done then it should be allowed. Yes it is sad the previous person did not get what they want, in the end they can decide to try to ERR. Otherwise having the outlook of fucking people over just because it happened to previous people is a terrible way to look at things in general. I am all for taking care of your CPCs. And I do believe they should get a level of priority here. If CPC ERR requests are being denied for no reason then that is something you need to address. Instead of taking it out on the next guy...

Although I think ZLA would be a great location. I would prefer ZLC if anyone would like to transfer.
Y'all are high if you think the agency is just going to let you swap facilities. Swaps aren't even considered until the last round of NCEPT so good luck. They don't give a shit whether you want to be at your assigned facility or not. Thats why you sign a paper saying you're willing to work anywhere in the US. Also, prior military experience means absolutely nothing, as they wash out at the same rate as off the street kids.

All you ppl who haven't even made it to the academy yet and all you that are still AGs need to chill out and do some research before y'all start spouting off misinformation.
 

KiloZulu

Trusted Contributor
Messages
238
Y'all are high if you think the agency is just going to let you swap facilities.
I don't think anyone thinks this is actually going to happen. As I mentioned earlier, NATCA tried to help two AGs swap so I think people are just fantasizing about it happening to them. No one's here demanding their dream facility right out of the Academy.
 

Phillytroll69

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
578
Facility
JNU Juneau Tower
Hello, I have a question for you, I graduated the academy back in mid October and am in training at ZLA. Could you see if anyone in your husbands class would like to choose ZOB and swap with me?

Would anyone who is currently in training at ZOB swap with me who is currently an AG at ZLA? I have alot of things happening at home and would like to stay closer to home before I would have to move out west
Your best bet is to get a divorce and move to zob with children, then claim he's tired from having to fly back and forth
 

sumtingwon

Member
Messages
79
Y'all are high if you think the agency is just going to let you swap facilities. Swaps aren't even considered until the last round of NCEPT so good luck. They don't give a shit whether you want to be at your assigned facility or not. Thats why you sign a paper saying you're willing to work anywhere in the US. Also, prior military experience means absolutely nothing, as they wash out at the same rate as off the street kids.

All you ppl who haven't even made it to the academy yet and all you that are still AGs need to chill out and do some research before y'all start spouting off misinformation.
Not sure exactly how you deduced my post as somehow spouting off misinformation. My post was not in all any way shape or form a SOP of how things are in the FAA. Furthermore, everyone has the right to ask. Now whether or not the request is approved or denied is up to the powers that be.

And I am not so sure your numbers are accurate regarding prior military experienced controllers. At least not according to every single study that has been done. Here is an example of a empirical analysis of attrition rates. Assessing Prior Experience in the Selection of Air Traffic Control Specialists (dtic.mil) As outlined and even RECOMMENDED by CAMI/FAA, prior military ATC experience has proven to have a much higher pass rate (both academy and at the facility) than compared to CTI or OTS applicants.
Yeah you're trying to trade copper for gold, probably not gonna happen
To each their own. Some people prefer ZLA over ZLC and vice versa.
I don't think anyone thinks this is actually going to happen. As I mentioned earlier, NATCA tried to help two AGs swap so I think people are just fantasizing about it happening to them. No one's here demanding their dream facility right out of the Academy.
I personally requested a transfer before I even received a FOL and it was approved. This of course was years ago and I am sure things have changed since then. But the point I am trying to make is you never know till you try and ask.
ZLC is gold? What does that make Texas? Tesla stock?
??? Tesla is leaving CA for TX so there's that lol.
Considering most of the new hires classes are ZOA, ZMP, ZLA, and ZNY, I'd say ZLC looks prettttttty good right now.
Maybe when you went through. This is not the case for a more broad spectrum analysis. I will say for many years ZOA has definitely been offered to applicants.
When I went it was like 3 ZLCs per class. It’ll come back around
Yup!
 

PlaneFlasher

Active Member
Messages
54
And I am not so sure your numbers are accurate regarding prior military experienced controllers. At least not according to every single study that has been done. Here is an example of a empirical analysis of attrition rates. Assessing Prior Experience in the Selection of Air Traffic Control Specialists (dtic.mil) As outlined and even RECOMMENDED by CAMI/FAA, prior military ATC experience has proven to have a much higher pass rate (both academy and at the facility) than compared to CTI or OTS applicants.
That study could be considered outdated given the hiring process has changed (with the BQ being trashed). Also that study does not distinguish between failures due to withdrawal and failures due to not scoring enough points. Could be that when this study was done, military CTO folks dropped out mid training a lot less rather than performed better (I'm sure a lot more of them are determined to control). I didn't see comparative information about Enroute vs Terminal pass rates in the study unless we can assume people with a CTO do tower at the Academy. This study is a high level view of what was going on half a decade ago which may hold true today but I don't think we could say for sure.
 

SaltedLight

Member
Messages
18
Anyone mention what the Slate book says?


Section 8. Mutual reassignment transfer requests may be submitted to the same, higher, or lower ATC FPL facility, for employees who have a minimum of one (1) year as a certified controller at his/her facility, but no more than three (3) ATC FPLs above the employee's current ATC FPL, unless the employee had been previously certified at the higher ATC FPL. Both employees must then notify their facility management, in writing, of their desire to swap with the following information:
a.name of the swapping employee;
b.facility of the swapping employee;
c.type and FPL of that facility;
d.requested release dates of the swap; and
e.employee's signature and date.

Approval will not be unreasonably denied nor will release dates be unreasonably delayed. The Parties recognize that mutual transfers under this Article are solely in the best interest of the employees and therefore employees will not be entitled to receive any PCS funds.

- So IMO they don't qualify.
 

MJ

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
2,677
Anyone mention what the Slate book says?


Section 8. Mutual reassignment transfer requests may be submitted to the same, higher, or lower ATC FPL facility, for employees who have a minimum of one (1) year as a certified controller at his/her facility, but no more than three (3) ATC FPLs above the employee's current ATC FPL, unless the employee had been previously certified at the higher ATC FPL. Both employees must then notify their facility management, in writing, of their desire to swap with the following information:
a.name of the swapping employee;
b.facility of the swapping employee;
c.type and FPL of that facility;
d.requested release dates of the swap; and
e.employee's signature and date.

Approval will not be unreasonably denied nor will release dates be unreasonably delayed. The Parties recognize that mutual transfers under this Article are solely in the best interest of the employees and therefore employees will not be entitled to receive any PCS funds.

- So IMO they don't qualify.
New hires at MMAC are not BUEs.
 

Phillytroll69

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
578
Facility
JNU Juneau Tower
Anyone mention what the Slate book says?


Section 8. Mutual reassignment transfer requests may be submitted to the same, higher, or lower ATC FPL facility, for employees who have a minimum of one (1) year as a certified controller at his/her facility, but no more than three (3) ATC FPLs above the employee's current ATC FPL, unless the employee had been previously certified at the higher ATC FPL. Both employees must then notify their facility management, in writing, of their desire to swap with the following information:
a.name of the swapping employee;
b.facility of the swapping employee;
c.type and FPL of that facility;
d.requested release dates of the swap; and
e.employee's signature and date.

Approval will not be unreasonably denied nor will release dates be unreasonably delayed. The Parties recognize that mutual transfers under this Article are solely in the best interest of the employees and therefore employees will not be entitled to receive any PCS funds.

- So IMO they don't qualify.
Also aren't restricted by it?
 

Termine

⭐SuperStar
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
500
New hires at MMAC are not BUEs.
True but not really relevant, this discussion seems focused on academy graduates who haven't yet reported to their new facilities. They are BUEs, even sitting at home. Though actually the slate book says the union is

the exclusive bargaining representative of Air Traffic Control Specialists located in terminal and en route facilities

so, uh, yeah.
 

Phillytroll69

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
578
Facility
JNU Juneau Tower
True but not really relevant, this discussion seems focused on academy graduates who haven't yet reported to their new facilities. They are BUEs, even sitting at home. Though actually the slate book says the union is



so, uh, yeah.
I never thought I would see IN air traffic facilities as a bargaining chip - absolutely pursue it write every manager rep etc
 

sumtingwon

Member
Messages
79
That study could be considered outdated given the hiring process has changed (with the BQ being trashed). Also that study does not distinguish between failures due to withdrawal and failures due to not scoring enough points. Could be that when this study was done, military CTO folks dropped out mid training a lot less rather than performed better (I'm sure a lot more of them are determined to control). I didn't see comparative information about Enroute vs Terminal pass rates in the study unless we can assume people with a CTO do tower at the Academy. This study is a high level view of what was going on half a decade ago which may hold true today but I don't think we could say for sure.
This is true, however, every study done in the past has shown a significant difference in attrition rates comparing VRA to OTS and CTI. I would venture to say similar results would be expected today.
 

Bandit117

Trusted Contributor
Messages
211
I don’t have a problem with the idea of it because It’s a one time situation. Rules have been bent and modified.

currency requirements have been slashed

training has been essentially made optional, left up to the local fac

supervisor deviations are suspended

all ncept releases are 12 months

etc.


Allowing people to swap back-and-forth between facilities they haven’t started training at in my opinion will only have a positive effect. It’s not “you get to leave” it’s a “you go and someone comes in to take your place” no net gain or loss.

I say it’s a positive thing because let’s pretend that you have people at say Minneapolis center and Seattle Center. These people are from the Respective local areas but got placed at opposite facilities they wanted and now want to switch to be somewhere closer to home. but you deny it, it’s not in the contract so fuck you both! Be happy you have the best job in the world! Now you train the guy from Seattle and after 3 years he certifies at Minneapolis center. The first thing he’s going to do is try to bid out, anywhere in Seattle. All that training And work put in to someone, only for them to want to bounce as soon as possible. and he might be out the door even before you Bc of how ncept works.

On the flip side, if you’re training someone who actively wants to be at the facility and stay long term, Bc it’s home, this person is much more likely to stick around I believe, make it worthwhile to bother to train them in the first place, rather than to have them try to transfer somewhere else the day they get certified.

yes, it’s not fair for people who graduated the Academy in normal times and didn’t have this option and it would’ve been nice, but this is a unique circumstance and I think in the long run it makes sense to allow people to transfer around provided it’s a one for one swap. putting people where they want to be will encourage longevity at facilities rather than forcing people to be places that they don’t want to be and ultimately wasting everyone’s time Because they won’t stay. A move now prevents moves down the line. Denying the opportunity to swap people To where they want to be in The first place takes away no staffing and no trainees, and it wastes less time in the long run.
 
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PlaneFlasher

Active Member
Messages
54
Seems like a lot of people have the "I suffered so everyone should suffer mindset". Let's not forget there was a time where people had an idea of where they were going before heading to the Academy. Of course it is unfair to those that didn't have the option previously if they were to start allowing it but I think everyone should support reasonable movement towards allowing people to go where they want.
 
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