Center approaches/separation to towered airports?

[tink]

Centers seem to have a few different rules they can or cannot use than tracons. No MVA's apparently and no divergence and not saying HEAVY, for a few examples.

Let's say a tracon goes ATC-0 for COVID cleaning. Is the Z that takes over the airspace going to be able to clear aircraft for approaches at a fairly normal rate if the tower controllers at the airports are still there? They shouldn't have to use one in/one out, right? Tower is there.

I have not worked a Z. Or been near one that had approaches into towered airports, only untowered; so pardon me if this is a ridiculously dumb question.

 

[32andBelow]

Centers seem to have a few different rules they can or cannot use than tracons. No MVA's apparently and no divergence and not saying HEAVY, for a few examples.

Let's say a tracon goes ATC-0 for COVID cleaning. Is the Z that takes over the airspace going to be able to clear aircraft for approaches at a fairly normal rate if the tower controllers at the airports are still there? They shouldn't have to use one in/one out, right? Tower is there.

I have not worked a Z. Or been near one that had approaches into towered airports, only untowered; so pardon me if this is a ridiculously dumb question.

Yah if you have an ils for example the center can line them up and use radar separation. As long as the missed approach goes straight out the other side and isn’t a fly black. They would have to maintain 5 miles separation minimum tho. Also tower can apply visual to get them even closer. And the planes could use visual between themselves

 

[DankVectorz]

Centers seem to have a few different rules they can or cannot use than tracons. No MVA's apparently and no divergence and not saying HEAVY, for a few examples.

Let's say a tracon goes ATC-0 for COVID cleaning. Is the Z that takes over the airspace going to be able to clear aircraft for approaches at a fairly normal rate if the tower controllers at the airports are still there? They shouldn't have to use one in/one out, right? Tower is there.

I have not worked a Z. Or been near one that had approaches into towered airports, only untowered; so pardon me if this is a ridiculously dumb question.

ZDC worked PHL’s airspace a month or so ago when PHL closed for cleaning. I know the Tracon closed, but don’t know if the tower did or not. They were running them 1 in 1 out. And of course they gave the airspace to an area of ZDC that doesn’t have a land line to my area even though they had to feed us.

 

[32andBelow]

ZDC worked PHL’s airspace a month or so ago when PHL closed for cleaning. I know the Tracon closed, but don’t know if the tower did or not. They were running them 1 in 1 out. And of course they gave the airspace to an area of ZDC that doesn’t have a land line to my area even though they had to feed us.

1 in 1 out is totally unnecessary unless you have to shoot the departures at the arrivals

 

[Robert_Boucher]

1 in 1 out is totally unnecessary unless you have to shoot the departures at the arrivals

Totally unnecessary but Z's still do it. When our approach closed for cleaning ZJX it was 1 in and out

 

[32andBelow]

Totally unnecessary but Z's still do it. When our approach closed for cleaning ZJX it was 1 in and out

That’s pretty bad if you can’t even run an SYD or a 3 minute rule

 

[Robert_Boucher]

That’s pretty bad if you can’t even run an SYD or a 3 minute rule

I don't know about all those fancy center rules, but I don't blame them. They have radar to the ground here, so we can still get releases from them if we need it.

 

[DankVectorz]

1 in 1 out is totally unnecessary unless you have to shoot the departures at the arrivals

idk if thr ZDC guy even had any of PHL’s airspace or approaches depicted. He seemed damn near panicked on the phone according the mid shifter I relieved

 

[32andBelow]

idk if thr ZDC guy even had any of PHL’s airspace or approaches depicted. He seemed damn near panicked on the phone according the mid shifter I relieved

Are these the emergency plans the faa touts?

 

[ehmeye]

Are these the emergency plans the faa touts?

When this shit started, my area rep asked me if I was interested in working the TRACON airspace in case they had to go ATC-0, because I came from an up/down. "Plans" is a little ambitious of a word.

 

[jdatc]

1 in 1 out is totally unnecessary unless you have to shoot the departures at the arrivals

Are we assuming radar to the ground?

 

[MKK]

It’s gotta be one in one out. You can’t get 5 miles/1000 feet otherwise even if you do have radar to the ground. Tower can maybe use visual for arrivals or departing/arriving but 2 departing aircraft one technically has to be out of the altitude for the next to be released.

 

[Dontbotherme]

It’s gotta be one in one out. You can’t get 5 miles/1000 feet otherwise even if you do have radar to the ground. Tower can maybe use visual for arrivals or departing/arriving but 2 departing aircraft one technically has to be out of the altitude for the next to be released.

Why couldn’t you run timed approaches to a towered airport? Why couldn’t the tower release aircraft a minute in trail and at least 45 degrees divergence?

 

[32andBelow]

It’s gotta be one in one out. You can’t get 5 miles/1000 feet otherwise even if you do have radar to the ground. Tower can maybe use visual for arrivals or departing/arriving but 2 departing aircraft one technically has to be out of the altitude for the next to be released.

If you can put the departures on 45 degree diverging headings you can launch them 1 minute in trail of each other.

Why couldn’t you run timed approaches to a towered airport? Why couldn’t the tower release aircraft a minute in trail and at least 45 degrees divergence?

You can. These guys saying 1 in 1 out must not own to the ground at their centers.

 

[Dontbotherme]

You can. These guys saying 1 in 1 out must not own to the ground at their centers.

We use timed approaches all the time in non radar environments (at AUO, with a non radar tower, on game days) and we routinely issue 45 degrees and a minute in trail.

 

[MKK]

I do own to the ground but when a vfr tower calls us for a release we usually release only 1 and HFR for the other. Just cuz of poor radar coverage in some areas and to ensure positive separation. Maybe just our center/area is like that. Just like when a pilot calls me from an uncontrolled airport and tells me they’re ready to go in 20 mins. Call me back or hold for release.

 

[32andBelow]

I do own to the ground but when a vfr tower calls us for a release we usually release only 1 and HFR for the other. Just cuz of poor radar coverage in some areas and to ensure positive separation. Maybe just our center/area is like that. Just like when a pilot calls me from an uncontrolled airport and tells me they’re ready to go in 20 mins. Call me back or hold for release.

As long as you got a non radar rule the tower can enforce it. I would never have fss enforce a non radar rule tho.

 

[MKK]

As long as you got a non radar rule the tower can enforce it. I would never have fss enforce a non radar rule tho.

Right just seems like I don’t see it at our center. Either many don’t know how to use it or are “afraid”. Half the controllers in my area won’t even use visual separation just because they afraid if one word is wrong and sometime part of phraseology is missed on either side of the radio the FAA police will be after them.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Right just seems like I don’t see it at our center. Either many don’t know how to use it or are “afraid”. Half the controllers in my area won’t even use visual separation just because they afraid if one word is wrong and sometime part of phraseology is missed on either side of the radio the FAA police will be after them.

Mix in runway angles, sids, stars, ils, backside, visual, etc- I'd be willing to bet some center controllers do their yearly elms and then forget about it

 

[32andBelow]

Mix in runway angles, sids, stars, ils, backside, visual, etc- I'd be willing to bet some center controllers do their yearly elms and then forget about it

At a major airport the center wouldn’t be that prepared. But they should know all this stuff for a VFR tower in their airspace. It likely won’t even have SIDs and STARs