I mentioned this before in this thread or the other but these rules allow for no way to replace a mid person who takes sick leave if your 24 hour facility is on 6 day weeks. All of your day shifters are now ineligible because of the 12 hour rule. I think the admin leave counting towards the 12 hours is the only workaround besides everyone working a first day mid. Either that or somebody becomes the adult in the room and realizes the 12 hour rule is stupid.
Consider all current and new rules while imagining new schedules
- Thread starter woodski
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I mentioned this before in this thread or the other but these rules allow for no way to replace a mid person who takes sick leave if your 24 hour facility is on 6 day weeks. All of your day shifters are now ineligible because of the 12 hour rule. I think the admin leave counting towards the 12 hours is the only workaround besides everyone working a first day mid. Either that or somebody becomes the adult in the room and realizes the 12 hour rule is stupid.
Somenewguy
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Hot take: the 12 hour rule isn't stupid. The fact that the agency has been "making it work" with this few people for this long is stupid. We need to get to a point where we have a workable schedule so our workforce isn't chronically fatigued. Many people are being asked to do the work of two people and this is not sustainable.
If we need to cut something it should be Airport and airspace capacity and operating hours. Time between shifts should be longer according to all of the data. Especially if you're working 6 shifts a week. If planes don't fly, who cares?
32andBelow
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It’s never going to happen with our current stuff. But many jobs similar to ours that have to function no matter what schedule people on “reserve”. That would be a huge win but I don’t see it happening
You think first day mids are a good idea? Outside of that or occasionally forcing people into a week of mids, explain to me how this can work. I think a good starting point could have been 10 hours between all shifts. Forcing a 12 hour rule either shows that the FAA doesn't understand how facilities actually staff or they are so hell bent on getting rid of the day/mid that they don't care what happens in regards to the rest of a controller's life/schedule.
Do you work at a 24 hour facility with OT?
Controllers aren't tired because they had 9 hours off opposed to 10 but rather because we get 4 days off all month. Rich got that correct in his letter.
Even if we had infinite staffing, the 12 hour rule is stupid. Is there literally anyone in the FAA who doesn't get enough sleep in the 8 hour gap between day/mid? I'm lucky if I can sleep for 3 hrs even if I'm exhausted. Extra time there isn't going to do shit. And if you don't get up early for the day shift before the mid, there's no way you're tired enough to sleep in the middle of the afternoon.
Somenewguy
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I absolutely agree with you on most points. 4 days off a month is shit garbage and Contributes to constant fatigue. These rules will make people eligible for less overtime. Holdover busting next assigned work shift and call outs being unable to be filled with OT.
The solution is making rules and procedures that align with our staffing reality.
Example: If your facility has 15 bodies, then your facility is no longer a 24 hour facility.
Example: 1/2 of your bodies in for the day, the arrival rate goes down 25%.
First day mids shouldn't be mandatory but they should be an option for facilities who want them. Admin for shifts still currently applies for duty rest requirements but let's give an example of it working:
Monday - 1400-2200 (admin 2200-0000)
Tuesday - 1000-1800 (admin 1800-2000)
Wednesday - 0500-1300 (admin 1300-1500)
Thursday - x
Friday - 2145-0545 (admin 0545-0745)
Why did creativity stop after covid?
Edit because my times were wrong
And not at a 24 hour right now but have worked at an understaffed 24 hr facility on 6 day weeks.
Anyone I've ever told about working a shift at 6 in the morning and then coming in to work a midnight shift with our job has been shocked and appaled. And they're right. Its fucking stupid.
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32andBelow
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And the swing day turn is even worse imo
Soul_Controller
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I think that one is mostly a discipline thing. Don't sleep in on your swings or too much on the weekend, and the impact is less. But some people have shitty commutes so I sympathize. Not too much though. I don't want people at facilities without mids thinking they have some sort of point to make in the fatigue conversation.
Sassyquatch
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Agreed.
Our mids are a joke here, maybe have 3 or 4 planes from midnight-5 am when I worked them. There's really no point to have them . I've also suggested us going to straight days/swings/mids rotating and only a handful of people I've mentioned it to would prefer that schedule. I've noticed most people at my facility either want straight day shifts & if they can't get that, they'd prefer to get rekt on this rattler with OT every week.
32andBelow
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I mean the whole schedule is a discipline thing. I do what you say and j also sleep before my mid. But others don’t.
Soul_Controller
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That's pretty much my stance. Swings suck for having a family life. And straight mids are counterproductive to the whole battling fatigue thing. People focus on the rattler, but the fundamental health problem is working overnight shifts in general.
We accept the rattler precisely because the mid is a joke at most places. If you asked someone on the rattler which day they would like to take a free day of leave on, most people wouldn't say their mid.
The problem is that OT breaks the entire point of the rattler, which is a long weekend. So now people have a tough schedule with no reward.
32andBelow
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I think the 6 day facilities and the 5 day facilities have a way different point of view and it might be why there’s so much argument. 5 day rattler your up by like 11 and have a whole 75 hours ahead of you.
bravounite33
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You would have 16 hrs (14 if a 10hr mid for some reason) between mid shifts and you go home and sleep in your own bed between each of those shifts. Not to mention a good chunk of the mid shift (some facilities I know it's 50%), you are on a "recuperative break" as well where you can sleep. We aren't the same as pilots when it comes to this.
Agree, it should happen but it won't. You can easily get "reserve" instead of working a 6th day as OT but the agency will never do that. They'll just assign the 6th day as OT and panic when a midnight guy calls out instead.
bomber996
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Lets be real. The mid is terrible for fatigue no matter which way you go about it. At least with the mid to end the week, most of your fatigue is non-operational time. It's on your "weekend" and you're not working traffic. If the agency's guidance around this is first day mids then they have their heads in the sand and they have no idea what we do. That would literally be the WORST thing for fatigue.
Has the agency released any guidance yet as to what they would suggest would be the optimal way to handle the mid at 24 hour facilities?
Has the agency released any guidance yet as to what they would suggest would be the optimal way to handle the mid at 24 hour facilities?
Exactly correct. Even if you were on straight mids assuming you have any sort of daytime obligations outside of work you are going to be tired. Especially if it’s a rotating schedule where you alternate between days/eves/mids and never fully adjust to them.
Soul_Controller
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The first day mid is a recommendation in some of the old fatigue studies. I believe it's one of the NASA ones. I think the concept is that you don't have the compounded fatigue from the work week. So yes, 3rd shift always sucks, but you aren't battling two days worth of sleep debt. Plus no quick turn during the week.
I don't want it either. But the reason I constantly bring it up is because it's a serious possibility that's already been a recommendation before. People not seeing this coming drives me nuts. We have local control of our schedules. That's already the best outcome. Crying to the newspapers and the administrator about how hard it is to stay up past our bedtimes had a very low chance of improving our situation.
Im holding out hope that this gets us a shorter work week. But it's probably going to get us more OT and eventually force them to cancel transfers.
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32andBelow
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You don’t even need an obligation. You’re basically asking people to give up their RDO completely to rest.
First day mid might work on some studies but in practice it would never work
SolicitSVFR
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I know several nurses who work 3 twelve hour shifts. 36 hour work week. Long day but I’d kill to have 4 days off
FlightOfTheShortGuy
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May take a little bit to be fully functional but our work week should be 32 hours anything past that is OT. That way if you have a 6 day work week you are getting 16 hours of Oat every week.
