CRWG

[rugbydog11]

I mean if people are die hard for the job then the current system wouldn’t stop em either

Less so, to where you have literally zero idea where you are going until you possibly pass class and choose from a random list.

 

[DankVectorz]

Less so, to where you have literally zero idea where you are going until you possibly pass class and choose from a random list.

Meh. Imo the main problem right now isn’t this but the national release policy. Have a realistic expectation of being able to transfer in a few years and going somewhere random isn’t nearly as big a deal so long as you got the job.

 

[32andBelow]

Meh. Imo the main problem right now isn’t this but the national release policy. Have a realistic expectation of being able to transfer in a few years and going somewhere random isn’t nearly as big a deal so long as you got the job.

Not only that they lie to you through the process and at the academy about how you can transfer in the future

 

[Seeyoufly]

This means when they up the numbers needed at your facility, it will be more difficult for you to transfer. So your hopes of leaving could become side tracked if say you needed 16 people currently and they up it to say 19. Now you have to train your replacements. I’ve been saying this for a while, an entire generation of controllers will most likely never transfer in order to fix the problem for the future.

This is very short sided....

2 state hire was solid. All the info is out there, if people are diehard for the job, they can find what states have what facilities, and what those facility staffing numbers are. I had 3 separate applications under that system where I chose OH/KY, OH/IN, and KY/IN to be as close as possible to home. And I am mad thankful for KY over anywhere in IN or OH.

bullshit. People put states with openings to get hired and then immediately put in paperwork to move, either via hardship or ERR.

But you might have been open to a job anywhere but can’t get picked up because you don’t pick the right two states. Two state system sucked.

 

[Papacharlie327]

Do you mean short sighted? If so that’s my point.

This is very short sided....

 

[32andBelow]

This is very short sided....

bullshit. People put states with openings to get hired and then immediately put in paperwork to move, either via hardship or ERR.

But you might have been open to a job anywhere but can’t get picked up because you don’t pick the right two states. Two state system sucked.

It didn’t suck for all the people that got to go where they wanted. It’s funny how all the older people at my facility are lifers and most never transferred

 

[Move78]

Not only that they lie to you through the process and at the academy about how you can transfer in the future

Who lied to you?

 

[CryBabiesGoHome]

People that are implying that regional hiring wouldn’t lower ERRs or increase moral are bat shit crazy. The VAST majority of people that don’t have ERRs are more than likely “home” or planning to make it home (for the foreseeable future), it’s not rocket science.

Oh, and you know what else is not rocket science?

More controllers = more due paying members.

It’s a cycle that needs to be fed and daddy NATCA is hungry.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Who lied to you?

My ATM and facrep at my first facility when they said they certify people and let them transfer because they’re basically a training facility

 

[Tater_Toad]

I agree with the placement thing. Not everyone’s end goal is 10+. Many people would be happy to be within a 6 hour drive of their home instead of halfway across the country where the only realistic option is to fly in order to see family.

Edit: anyone know why they left regional placement?

Halfway? Try nearly 3000 miles bud

 

[DADDYSbabyBIRD]

I like that no one wants to even talk about the real reason the majority of transfers happen/are attempted. Everyone talks about "moving closer to family" or being stuck in a shitty place and sure those are real things. However, I think if we were honest about why most ERRs are put in and look at the places that most commonly are requested the problem is fairly obvious.

Places people want to get to(general list to get point across):
DEN, DFW, CLT, PHX, IAH and all the corresponding tracons and centers.
These places are high pay with low to decently moderate cost of living. People just want their pay to give them and their family the best life possible.

If we look at places people try to avoid they either have very high cost of living or low pay... or both.

There's a reason someone from a level 6 up/down has a much higher chance at putting in DEN (12) than APA ( or BJC (7, pushing 8?) Even when they are decently in the same area. I would argue maybe DEN is even in a worse location. The same goes for PHX/P50, geographically it may be better to work at DVT,SDL,FFZ in terms of drive to work good housing nearby schedules ect... but vastly more people ERR (maybe for this one I should say hardship) to the higher level places 10 and 11 than the 8s and 9s around them.

We are talking about where we chose to work... for money. That is a major driver of our choices that everyone seems to skip over in this conversation. I'm guessing maybe becuase it seems like something that could never be changed. I'm also sure NATCA and the FAA don't even want to bring it up at all, the solutions all have someone losing... either the pay bands get squished down where higher levels get paid a little less and the smaller places get paid a little more making it a bit less of a jump up as you go. Or everyone makes the same and hard to work busy places get screwed, (level 4s would have 1000s of ERRs into them) or the FAA/Gov has to take money from other things or taxpayers to raise the wages up for the lower places making them more competitive.

I'm guessing if you paid people at 789s the same as 10 11 12s the motivation to try and jump up would vastly go away.

But it's the Gov, the real solution will not be looked at as it doesn't serve those in power at all, NATCAs power is all in the large higher paid places... they got theirs.

 

[ZO]

People that are implying that regional hiring wouldn’t lower ERRs or increase moral are bat shit crazy. The VAST majority of people that don’t have ERRs are more than likely “home” or planning to make it home (for the foreseeable future), it’s not rocket science.

Oh, and you know what else is not rocket science?

More controllers = more due paying members.

It’s a cycle that needs to be fed and daddy NATCA is hungry.

Yes because they moved away from regional hiring because it was working great.

The clear issue that has been stated multiple times is that it doesn't matter if you're "home". You'll still bid to the higher level facility down the street.

Morale can't be quantified, especially projecting it in a new hire. Needs come first.

 

[CryBabiesGoHome]

People that are implying that regional hiring wouldn’t lower ERRs or increase moral are bat shit crazy.

I said what I said and I stand by it.

Yes because they moved away from regional hiring because it was working great.

And because the current system is working out great as well…

 

[HammerHead]

I like that no one wants to even talk about the real reason the majority of transfers happen/are attempted. Everyone talks about "moving closer to family" or being stuck in a shitty place and sure those are real things. However, I think if we were honest about why most ERRs are put in and look at the places that most commonly are requested the problem is fairly obvious.

Places people want to get to(general list to get point across):
DEN, DFW, CLT, PHX, IAH and all the corresponding tracons and centers.
These places are high pay with low to decently moderate cost of living. People just want their pay to give them and their family the best life possible.

If we look at places people try to avoid they either have very high cost of living or low pay... or both.

There's a reason someone from a level 6 up/down has a much higher chance at putting in DEN (12) than APA ( or BJC (7, pushing 8?) Even when they are decently in the same area. I would argue maybe DEN is even in a worse location. The same goes for PHX/P50, geographically it may be better to work at DVT,SDL,FFZ in terms of drive to work good housing nearby schedules ect... but vastly more people ERR (maybe for this one I should say hardship) to the higher level places 10 and 11 than the 8s and 9s around them.

We are talking about where we chose to work... for money. That is a major driver of our choices that everyone seems to skip over in this conversation. I'm guessing maybe becuase it seems like something that could never be changed. I'm also sure NATCA and the FAA don't even want to bring it up at all, the solutions all have someone losing... either the pay bands get squished down where higher levels get paid a little less and the smaller places get paid a little more making it a bit less of a jump up as you go. Or everyone makes the same and hard to work busy places get screwed, (level 4s would have 1000s of ERRs into them) or the FAA/Gov has to take money from other things or taxpayers to raise the wages up for the lower places making them more competitive.

I'm guessing if you paid people at 789s the same as 10 11 12s the motivation to try and jump up would vastly go away.

But it's the Gov, the real solution will not be looked at as it doesn't serve those in power at all, NATCAs power is all in the large higher paid places... they got theirs.

Bingo. I would take BJC or APA in a heartbeat but you better believe I'd have paperwork in for DEN, D01, and ZDV. The only reason being money.

 

[ZO]

I said what I said and I stand by it.

Nobody is stopping you. You can say factually incorrect things to your hearts desire. That's what this echo chamber is all about.

 

[CryBabiesGoHome]

Nobody is stopping you. You can say factually incorrect things to your hearts desire. That's what this echo chamber is all about.

Factually incorrect. Ok. So you honestly believe that people having the ability to apply to jobs on a city by city bid would not lower the number of ERRs? Really.

Because that’s how literally EVERY other federal agency does. Even tech ops.
The FBI, IRS and all the agencies that hire by the thousands allow applicants to directly select cities that they are willing to work in. But we have to be special and continue with our current system.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Factually incorrect. Ok. So you honestly believe that people having the ability to apply to jobs on a city by city bid would not lower the number of ERRs? Really.

Because that’s how literally EVERY other federal agency does. Even tech ops.
The FBI, IRS and all the agencies that hire by the thousands allow applicants to directly select cities that they are willing to work in. But we have to be special and continue with our current system.

C.i.p is what addresses the issue you're talking about

 

[CryBabiesGoHome]

C.i.p is what addresses the issue you're talking about

For sure.

I actually had that in my original reply but lost it on a retype.

 

[ZO]

Factually incorrect. Ok. So you honestly believe that people having the ability to apply to jobs on a city by city bid would not lower the number of ERRs? Really.

Because that’s how literally EVERY other federal agency does. Even tech ops.
The FBI, IRS and all the agencies that hire by the thousands allow applicants to directly select cities that they are willing to work in. But we have to be special and continue with our current system.

Yes. Because we aren't the FBI that has one location in each metro area.

Like I've said before. If you bid a Texas bid because that's where you're from and you get ADS. You will still put an ERR in for DFW or D10 or whatever high level facility in that area. And it doesn't matter if you got sent to a tower in Oregon or ADS. You will STILL have an ERR on file to DFW/D10.

Plus the hard to staff middle of nowhere states/facilities would be even harder to staff because the pool of applicants would be even slimmer.

 

[Phillytroll69]

For sure.

I actually had that in my original reply but lost it on a retype.

Ahh yeah. I guess it should say cip is SUPPOSED to be addressing the issue lol I'll correct myself