CRWG

[32andBelow]

Yes. Because we aren't the FBI that has one location in each metro area.

Like I've said before. If you bid a Texas bid because that's where you're from and you get ADS. You will still put an ERR in for DFW or D10 or whatever high level facility in that area. And it doesn't matter if you got sent to a tower in Oregon or ADS. You will STILL have an ERR on file to DFW/D10.

Plus the hard to staff middle of nowhere states/facilities would be even harder to staff because the pool of applicants would be even slimmer.

This is the other problem. Terminal and en route are so vastly different and over half the controllers are en route.

 

[ChuckNovember]

Yes because they moved away from regional hiring because it was working great.

The clear issue that has been stated multiple times is that it doesn't matter if you're "home". You'll still bid to the higher level facility down the street.

Morale can't be quantified, especially projecting it in a new hire. Needs come first.

the problem with "regional" hiring was New York and Florida were in the same region. If they made it the actual regions it would have been better.

Nobody is stopping you. You can say factually incorrect things to your hearts desire. That's what this echo chamber is all about.

We had a trainee walk into our level 11 facility this week and ask how to fill out ERR/Hardship paperwork on day one.

We've had no less than 6 trainees withdraw from training once they realized how hard it was to live that far away from their support network when they have grandparents/SOs in states halfway across the country. It isn't controversial to say that allowing people more agency in where they live would help us (the people who are actually certified working traffic) and them. And guess what: if we went back to a two state/regional system and someone played around to increase their chances of getting picked up I have no problem with that person being stuck for the first half of their career. But sending one person who has a wife and kids in Texas to Seattle one week and another who lives in Tacoma to Houston the next "because of staffing need" is absolutely asinine and I feel for them.

Idk why we are choosing to turn a blind eye to this and die on this hill. Pointing out that the system is fucked and we should be actively working to change it shouldn't lump you in with the NATCA haters; it's absolutely valid.

 

[ZO]

We had a trainee walk into our level 11 facility this week and ask how to fill out ERR/Hardship paperwork on day one.

We've had no less than 6 trainees withdraw from training once they realized how hard it was to live that far away from their support network when they have grandparents/SOs in states halfway across the country. It isn't controversial to say that allowing people more agency in where they live would help us (the people who are actually certified working traffic) and them. And guess what: if we went back to a two state/regional system and someone played around to increase their chances of getting picked up I have no problem with that person being stuck for the first half of their career. But sending one person who has a wife and kids in Texas to Seattle one week and another who lives in Tacoma to Houston the next "because of staffing need" is absolutely asinine and I feel for them.

Idk why we are choosing to turn a blind eye to this and die on this hill. Pointing out that the system is fucked and we should be actively working to change it shouldn't lump you in with the NATCA haters; it's absolutely valid.

I am not arguing that it is a good idea in theory. But simply doesn't work in practice unfortunately. I would love if that system works because it does make sense. People just seem to think it is the answer to the problem, and it just isn't.

Obviously it can be improved, there should be some wiggle room. But the logistics of placing people that way as a rule is just too much and doesn't help the NAS. Especially with how slow the FAA operates.

Only way in my mind that it would be possible is if they instituted contracts for facility bids. But that is a whole different onion to peel.

 

[Phillytroll69]

t But sending one person who has a wife and kids in Texas to Seattle one week and another who lives in Tacoma to Houston the next "because of staffing need" is absolutely asinine and I feel for them.

we tried to trade slots when i was in okc, it was denied because there wasn't a guarantee on how many would pass. i don't know if they hired in chunks but there were 4 people who wanted to go to ny and it wasn't on their list, and more of us that didn't want to go there.

seems in line with trainees can't swap. Even worse, A-sides, on covid, not in building for over a year, couldn't swap.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Natca has zero to do with hiring and initial placement and I highly doubt that they ever will. The FAA does what the FAA wants.

 

[ChuckNovember]

I am not arguing that it is a good idea in theory. But simply doesn't work in practice unfortunately. I would love if that system works because it does make sense. People just seem to think it is the answer to the problem, and it just isn't.

Obviously it can be improved, there should be some wiggle room. But the logistics of placing people that way as a rule is just too much and doesn't help the NAS. Especially with how slow the FAA operates.

Only way in my mind that it would be possible is if they instituted contracts for facility bids. But that is a whole different onion to peel.

If you think it can obviously be improved why are you arguing so hard for it? Why do we allow for people with central long island zip codes go to ZNY if that doesn't help? Let's start by doing that for every facility. Show us mail from a zip code within 30 miles of a facility that needs people and you can go there.

Changing this would absolutely help the NAS. IMO it's far and away the best (possibly the only) way to help the NAS.

 

[32andBelow]

we tried to trade slots when i was in okc, it was denied because there wasn't a guarantee on how many would pass. i don't know if they hired in chunks but there were 4 people who wanted to go to ny and it wasn't on their list, and more of us that didn't want to go there.

seems in line with trainees can't swap. Even worse, A-sides, on covid, not in building for over a year, couldn't swap.

You should really just apply directly to facilities that have openings.

 

[ZO]

If you think it can obviously be improved why are you arguing so hard for it? Why do we allow for people with central long island zip codes go to ZNY if that doesn't help? Let's start by doing that for every facility. Show us mail from a zip code within 30 miles of a facility that needs people and you can go there.

Changing this would absolutely help the NAS. IMO it's far and away the best (possibly the only) way to help the NAS.

I'm arguing against the common idea that "just hire locally" will fix the staffing issues. They tried it, didn't work. There was too much of an imbalance. Less sought after facilities got fucked even harder than they do now.

And as NATCA going to the FAA for discussions, it's damn near impossible to say "hey, I know these North Dakota and Ohio facilities have no staffing, but let's let another thousand new hires go to Cali, Florida, and Texas because it'll make them happier." It just doesn't work.

Also the N90 thing was literally an act of congress to get that done. So there's that.

 

[ChuckNovember]

I'm arguing against the common idea that "just hire locally" will fix the staffing issues. They tried it, didn't work. There was too much of an imbalance. Less sought after facilities got fucked even harder than they do now.

And as NATCA going to the FAA for discussions, it's damn near impossible to say "hey, I know these North Dakota and Ohio facilities have no staffing, but let's let another thousand new hires go to Cali, Florida, and Texas because it'll make them happier." It just doesn't work.

Also the N90 thing was literally an act of congress to get that done. So there's that.

When did we try it? Pre-sequester? We haven't had local hiring for ages.

 

[32andBelow]

I'm arguing against the common idea that "just hire locally" will fix the staffing issues. They tried it, didn't work. There was too much of an imbalance. Less sought after facilities got fucked even harder than they do now.

And as NATCA going to the FAA for discussions, it's damn near impossible to say "hey, I know these North Dakota and Ohio facilities have no staffing, but let's let another thousand new hires go to Cali, Florida, and Texas because it'll make them happier." It just doesn't work.

Also the N90 thing was literally an act of congress to get that done. So there's that.

They could actually try to recruit locally. Send the ATM out to the local community college. You know people actually live in these cities right, making a lot less with a lot less career options too.

 

[ZO]

When did we try it? Pre-sequester? We haven't had local hiring for ages.

Been a while sure. Don't know exactly. It's just a damn tough sell to the FAA (which when it comes to hiring, NATCA is legally not allowed to make any decisions, and we have no right to have any say), when so many facilities need staffing in every corner of the NAS, to not just send them to the most needy.

 

[ChuckNovember]

Been a while sure. Don't know exactly. It's just a damn tough sell to the FAA (which when it comes to hiring, NATCA is legally not allowed to make any decisions, and we have no right to have any say), when so many facilities need staffing in every corner of the NAS, to not just send them to the most needy.

Luckily we have a PAC for that.
Edit: anecdotal but must of the guys aging out in my facility were hired direct to the facility and never left.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Regarding the nobody would apply to small states in the geographical hiring thing, I never bought that.

You can’t tell me they can’t find just 17 people out of 100,000 in places like Bismarck, North Dakota who liked the area while serving in the military, or are people who are from there who wouldn’t apply and be happy with making low 100 thousands most of their career to settle down there and never leave their family, and not want to ERR the day after CPC.

That’s all it would take for places like that, most are small facilities that need under 20 people. This is a cool and great job on paper, there is virtually no facility in the country that doesn’t have a metro area population of at least 100K within a hour, you should be able to find 20 locals (.0002 of the population) in all those cases who would want to apply and work there.

If it’s a small facility in a large area like LA, yes the pay is relatively low for Ontario, CA, but then you have millions in areas like that, you should still be able to find 20 people happy to do to.

 

[ZO]

Regarding the nobody would apply to small states in the geographical hiring thing, I never bought that.

You can’t tell me they can’t find just 17 people out of 100,000 in places like Bismarck, North Dakota who liked the area while serving in the military, or are people who are from there who wouldn’t apply and be happy with making low 100 thousands most of their career to settle down there and never leave their family, and not want to ERR the day after CPC.

That’s all it would take for places like that, most are small facilities that need under 20 people. This is a cool and great job on paper, there is virtually no facility in the country that doesn’t have a metro area population of at least 100K within a hour, you should be able to find 20 locals (.0002 of the population) in all those cases who would want to apply and work there.

If it’s a small facility in a large area like LA, yes the pay is relatively low for Ontario, CA, but then you have millions in areas like that, you should still be able to find 20 people happy to do to.

There definitely are. But the problem is that how many applicants, just want their foot in the door? How many would take a spot anywhere just to submit an ERR a day after certification? I would have 100% done that if I missed out on a few prior/open bids.

You can't sift through every applicant and ensure they will stay unless they sign a 10 year contract or whatever. And without that, it brings you right back to the issue at hand.

 

[POINTOUT]

There definitely are. But the problem is that how many applicants, just want their foot in the door? How many would take a spot anywhere just to submit an ERR a day after certification? I would have 100% done that if I missed out on a few prior/open bids.

You can't sift through every applicant and ensure they will stay unless they sign a 10 year contract or whatever. And without that, it brings you right back to the issue at hand.

Exactly. Shit I tried to get In for 7 years with that 2 state shit. Scored in the well qualified every time on the atsat which was the highest band at the time. CTI, bachelors blah blah blah. Never got picked up with my 2 states so I started networking to New Mexico and fucking Puerto Rico just to get in. Of course I was never going to stay there.

 

[ChuckNovember]

There definitely are. But the problem is that how many applicants, just want their foot in the door? How many would take a spot anywhere just to submit an ERR a day after certification? I would have 100% done that if I missed out on a few prior/open bids.

You can't sift through every applicant and ensure they will stay unless they sign a 10 year contract or whatever. And without that, it brings you right back to the issue at hand.

But it's completely different because those people chose to increase their chances and go for the low hanging fruit. They picked the states in their application and getting stuck is entirely on them.

 

[32andBelow]

Exactly. Shit I tried to get In for 7 years with that 2 state shit. Scored in the well qualified every time on the atsat which was the highest band at the time. CTI, bachelors blah blah blah. Never got picked up with my 2 states so I started networking to New Mexico and fucking Puerto Rico just to get in. Of course I was never going to stay there.

Cool took me 6 years under bioQ

 

[Phillytroll69]

You should really just apply directly to facilities that have openings.

It's a mixed bag. I think that should be one option.

I think we gotta allow swaps amongst trainees, like years of training to be quickly followed up by a hardship or sup bid, cuz that's the only option?

Also, swaps need to be relaxed it shouldn't be a double loss among cpcs as long as it same type of facility and similar level


or start everyone at zny and just hold tower class in the basement while they wait.

 

[32andBelow]

It's a mixed bag. I think that should be one option.

I think we gotta allow swaps amongst trainees, like years of training to be quickly followed up by a hardship or sup bid, cuz that's the only option?

Also, swaps need to be relaxed it shouldn't be a double loss among cpcs as long as it same type of facility and similar level


or start everyone at zny and just hold tower class in the basement while they wait.

They also shouldn’t flood certain centers. As long as low staffed places are flushed with enough trainees then you should be putting people in other places to get certified faster

Like ZTL training department shouldn’t be doing nothing while ZNY has a 4 year D side wait. Other centers can keep working towards 100% staffing. And believe it or not there’s people stuck at higher staffed places that want to go to lower staffed places

 

[ZO]

It's a mixed bag. I think that should be one option.

I think we gotta allow swaps amongst trainees, like years of training to be quickly followed up by a hardship or sup bid, cuz that's the only option?

Also, swaps need to be relaxed it shouldn't be a double loss among cpcs as long as it same type of facility and similar level


or start everyone at zny and just hold tower class in the basement while they wait.

Swaps are the worst possible thing for staffing. How can you sell that to the FAA? "Let's turn 2 qualified bodies, into 2 effectively useless trainees for ~1-2 years?"