Dear SFO, Please stop this now.

[Dues For Booze]

This is not how "the numbers" work, at all. Stop it now before more controllers and ATC get embarrassed by a "procedure" that is not compatible in an airline cockpit.

It may maybe a running joke, but you need to actually collaborate harder with the airlines before exposing yourself like this.

Answer: The airliner still has to input/tell the FMS which runway it is departing from. And yes 28L and 28R make a difference. SWA is required to set the parking, re enter the information, and the other pilot verify it before departing. 2 minutes minimum.

Now off to an event to drink my dues away for this pay period.

 

[MJ]

 

[boots]

What a dumb bitch

 

[CoffeeIV]

Controller was a bit over the top but I work with people just like her and I bet this has happened plenty of times to her. Pilots don't pick up the ATIS regularly. Every time we do a runway change, even if you tell them on pushback they still get to the runway and waste everyones time. Always enjoyable when a Max tells Ground they don't need more time at the end then Local tries to launch them and they all of a sudden need 2 minutes and hold everything up.

SFO's ATIS specifically says to have the numbers for both. Give that dude a nice delay and teach him how to be on his A game next time. Missing the small things to cause bigger problems.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Wow so many if us that we are here to provide a service. I understand the need for speed but we still could've held a whole line of traffic at varying fixes out towards Nevada in order to accommodate

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Controller was a bit over the top but I work with people just like her and I bet this has happened plenty of times to her. Pilots don't pick up the ATIS regularly. Every time we do a runway change, even if you tell them on pushback they still get to the runway and waste everyones time. Always enjoyable when a Max tells Ground they don't need more time at the end then Local tries to launch them and they all of a sudden need 2 minutes and hold everything up.

SFO's ATIS specifically says to have the numbers for both. Give that dude a nice delay and teach him how to be on his A game next time. Missing the small things to cause bigger problems.

The point is that you can't load two sets of numbers into the FMS. So they loaded 28L because that is the runway they were told when they started taxiing. The extreme last minute change to 28R means they need to reprogram and check their FMS. That cannot be done in less than two minutes. Isn't this months PFA briefing about last minute runway changes for this exact reason??? SFO is already special for a number of reasons but you can only load and brief departure procedures so quickly. Also, never argue on frequency you only end up sounding like an idiot even if you are correct.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

This is one reason it would be nice for controllers to observe the cockpit especially when given last minute runway change. Surely they could turn this into an ELMS, both sides of the mic need to see the other sides perspective. I do agree that maybe if the Delta thought it was going to take him longer than 2 minutes he should've asked to hold short of the RWY. They are also right in the sense that there a difference in having the numbers and it being loaded into the FMS. But the controllers response is horrible and unprofessional.

Bring back flight deck training!

 

[TimShady]

Never trust a pilot when he says he needs 2 minutes. That was her first mistake. She had a point that they need to be honest with how long they need, but then again, when she gave him an out she said traffic (an RJ) was 9 mile final and it’ll be 5 minutes before they land, to which he responded he was good with 5 minutes. That was her next mistake.

 

[Motodog]

His response to her should have been-Didn‘t I used to be married to you?

 

[Bandit117]

Never trust a pilot when he says he needs 2 minutes. That was her first mistake. She had a point that they need to be honest with how long they need, but then again, when she gave him an out she said traffic (an RJ) was 9 mile final and it’ll be 5 minutes before they land, to which he responded he was good with 5 minutes. That was her next mistake.

Her main mistake was expecting them to load both runways which is physically impossible. You have to pick one, the FMS has to be reprogrammed if you’re changing it. They guessed and they guessed wrong. Not their fault with such a poor procedure on the atis. It’s just ignorance of the conditions and the environment in which we work.

Reprogramming the FMS, most airlines do it with Mutual concurrence from each crew member, verifying each item is spelled correctly and in the right order. Kind of reminds me of videos of nuclear launch procedures, with built in stops to make sure the information is correct, accurate, and everyone who needs to agrees on it.

 

[RalphBeast]

In my experience, anything other than a "ready to go" = hold short of the rwy when their is an ac on final. Burned too many times.

Ultimately DL should not have lined up, but this was handled incredibly poorly by the controller. Even if she's "right" she still looks like a moody idiot. Would you want to be on an aircraft whose pilots just had a heated argument on frequency prior to takeoff? DL guys are probably couldn't care less but these kinds of interactions can really rattle newer less-confident pilots right before takeoff at a fairly complicated airport/airspace.

And this is coming from someone who has been on both sides.

 

[Phillyman2633]

I can subconscious hear this bitch telling me to wear a mask the last 3 years

I wonder if she gets a bonus if she pushes another few departures out every hour

 

[doodii]

Every Sunday morning that I work by myself in the Tower is my “let’s ask a pilot a random question because I’m bored.” Believe it or not, I’ve actually received some solid information about aviation on their part. Even simply asking “what does it mean when you said “I don’t have the numbers for 23L”” gave me insight.

 

[Atcbrownie]

What happened here was local overkeyed DAL before there were finished reading back the instructions from local. DAL didnt hear the traffic call about SKW on final. DAL then questioned local on the instructions cause their plan was to spend 2 mins "in position" to load the departure in the FMS.

Local then (not knowing that DAL didn't hear the traffic call) tells DAL that they have 5 mins. DAL takes this as they have 5 mins once in position (which they only need 2) to complete the FMS change.

DAL had just gotten into position to begin the FMS change when LOCAL asked them if they were ready.

This is both an ATC and Pilot complete lack of communication. Both communicated what they needed but neither understood what the other was saying.

In this situation I feel like the pilot understood the situation which is why they questioned the instructions.

The controller also understood the situation which is why they were quick to key up with the traffic on final which DAL didn't hear cause local overkeyed.

 

[WavesAndClouds]

Hmmm sounds like a good reason to bring back FDT…. I mean it won’t help SFO because their staffing im sure is shot. But for staffed facilities I have no idea why we are not doing it. A good amount of people at my tower have never seen the inside of a commercial cockpit.

 

[Phillytroll69]

In my experience, anything other than a "ready to go" = hold short of the rwy when their is an ac on final. Burned too many times.

Ultimately DL should not have lined up, but this was handled incredibly poorly by the controller. Even if she's "right" she still looks like a moody idiot. Would you want to be on an aircraft whose pilots just had a heated argument on frequency prior to takeoff? DL guys are probably couldn't care less but these kinds of interactions can really rattle newer less-confident pilots right before takeoff at a fairly complicated airport/airspace.

And this is coming from someone who has been on both sides.

As someone who has HAND FLOWN numerous multi engine aircraft out of sfo on flight simulator I don't get why it's so difficult this new generation smh

 

[Electricfence]

What happened here was local overkeyed DAL before there were finished reading back the instructions from local. DAL didnt hear the traffic call about SKW on final. DAL then questioned local on the instructions cause their plan was to spend 2 mins "in position" to load the departure in the FMS.

Local then (not knowing that DAL didn't hear the traffic call) tells DAL that they have 5 mins. DAL takes this as they have 5 mins once in position (which they only need 2) to complete the FMS change.

DAL had just gotten into position to begin the FMS change when LOCAL asked them if they were ready.

This is both an ATC and Pilot complete lack of communication. Both communicated what they needed but neither understood what the other was saying.

In this situation I feel like the pilot understood the situation which is why they questioned the instructions.

The controller also understood the situation which is why they were quick to key up with the traffic on final which DAL didn't hear cause local overkeyed.

I would argue those things don’t matter because luaw is used for imminent departure. 2 min is not imminent. This is a controller screw up, anything after that proves why luaw should only be used for imminent departures.

 

[CoffeeIV]

I would argue those things don’t matter because luaw is used for imminent departure. 2 min is not imminent. This is a controller screw up, anything after that proves why luaw should only be used for imminent departures.

Straight from the .65:

NOTE− When using LUAW, an imminent departure is one that will not be delayed beyond the time that is required to ensure a safe operation. An aircraft should not be in LUAW status for more than 90 seconds without additional instructions.

She gave him additional information. Are some of you actually certified at Core 30 towers? I see some TRACON only and Center folks commenting on a level 10 tower controller. A place that obviously pushes traffic and does this routinely to have it on the ATIS. I know my tower has people wait more than 90 secs for LUAW because you have to on intersecting runways sometimes when TRACON gives you a shit sequence.

 

[Electricfence]

Straight from the .65:

NOTE− When using LUAW, an imminent departure is one that will not be delayed beyond the time that is required to ensure a safe operation. An aircraft should not be in LUAW status for more than 90 seconds without additional instructions.

She gave him additional information. Are some of you actually certified at Core 30 towers? I see some TRACON only and Center folks commenting on a level 10 tower controller. A place that obviously pushes traffic and does this routinely to have it on the ATIS. I know my tower has people wait more than 90 secs for LUAW because you have to on intersecting runways sometimes when TRACON gives you a shit sequence.

That doesn’t say you can plan to put them out there for longer than 90 right from the start like you are saying it does. That easily reads, put them out there and get them out within 90 and if you have to keep them out there due to unforeseen circumstances, you have to provide additional instructions as to why you are keeping them out there longer and a further clearance. Core 30 or not that’s a terrible practice. She could have easily said hold short 28R, advise when ready. if they are allowed to hold in between.

Also did I miss where on the atis it said expect a possible lengthy LUaW clearance?

 

[TimShady]

Using LUAW while a pilot runs numbers with traffic on final wasn’t the intent of the procedure. She even said if you’re not comfortable then hold short, so it’s not like there was no other option. I wouldn’t say she broke any rules per se, but obviously it didn’t work and probably shouldn’t have been done.

BTW, I work at a level 12 tower and we advertise 2 departure runways, as I’m sure many airports do. We expect pilots to be able to depart from either runway, but if they’re taxied to one runway and then when number one told to cross and LUAW the other runway and be ready to depart immediately, that’s just unreasonable. These aren’t VFR Cessnas.