Departure WT sep
- Thread starter MJ
- Start date
- Messages
- 3,162
Yep that's exactly what I was looking for. Must have looked right past it. Thanks.
- Messages
- 5
- Facility
- BFL Bakersfield Tower
Start the 2 minute timer. At the end of 2 minutes, measure the miles. Use that number of miles
I see what you did there...
Similar scenario at work recently: Heavy in the pattern on the right side, A320 on a visual to the left. Runways are less than 2400’. The heavy was turned in front of the air bus, controller working issued traffic and the air bus reported insight, cautionary was given but no maintain visual sep. deal or clean?
The heavy is vfr pattern work, so not radar IDd and therefore no mileage can be kept when heavy crosses threshold. Not to mention the Airbus is radars traffic and the heavy is towers... The arrival to arrival L behind a H 5 miles at the threshold would be on radar anyway, not tower, even if it were applicable. So I'm just calling traffic and giving a cautionary advisory.
Even the heavy departing before the Airbus arrives would only require a cautionary
Even the heavy departing before the Airbus arrives would only require a cautionary
- Messages
- 3,162
Shouldn’t 5-5-4 g c 1 2 not apply because the heavy is not conducting an instrument approach?
5-5-4 h is a contrast to g, specifically addressing pattern operations, and the only restrictions noted are small behind large/heavy, and does not include large behind heavy.
5-5-4 h is a contrast to g, specifically addressing pattern operations, and the only restrictions noted are small behind large/heavy, and does not include large behind heavy.
- Messages
- 3,162
H is in addition to G, they are not mutually exclusive.
g. Separate aircraft operating directly behind or following an aircraft conducting an instrument approach by the minima specified and in accordance with the following:
NOTE: Consider parallel runways less than 2,500 feet apart as a single runway because of the possible effects of wake turbulence.
- When operating within 2,500 feet of the flight path of the leading aircraft over the surface of the earth and less than 1,000 feet below:
(1) Heavy - 4 miles.
(2) Large or small - 5 miles
Right but the heavy isn't on an instrument approach... I've always read that as apply that separation to AC operating behind an AC on an instrument approach... Or... Apply that separation to AC on an approach/following an AC on an instrument approach
The controller working issued the traffic call to the air bus right at 3 miles, 300’ sep. he says he’s good because of .65 2-1-19 and the airbus being on a visual approach. I say it’s not clean because of the rule cited above about applying wake turb sep to aircraft operating behind or within 2,500 feet...
I have a feeling it will be sent up to the region and they’re going to have to decide.
I have a feeling it will be sent up to the region and they’re going to have to decide.
Stinger
Forum Sage
- Messages
- 1,496
I've gone around and around on this topic with others recently (with a small and large on same runway, but the same thing.) I'm on the side of just give a cautionary advisory and call it good.
Turn your scenario around a little and have the heavy on a straight-in while the large is on a downwind doing pattern work. Large never reports the heavy in sight....when is it legal to tell the large to turn base?
Using 2-1-19b and 2-1-20....which references AC 90-23G
The part saying "if you have visual contact with the larger aircraft" wouldn't even be included if a mileage was required since the wake turbulence would have dissipated by the time the trailing aircraft reaches the same point using mileage.
5-5-4 mentions:
"When operating within 2,500 feet of the flight path of the leading aircraft over the surface of the earth and less than 1,000 feet below"
Unless the large was 300 feet below the heavy, that doesn't apply either in your situation.
Turn your scenario around a little and have the heavy on a straight-in while the large is on a downwind doing pattern work. Large never reports the heavy in sight....when is it legal to tell the large to turn base?
Using 2-1-19b and 2-1-20....which references AC 90-23G
AC90-23G Paragraph 8G said:
The part saying "if you have visual contact with the larger aircraft" wouldn't even be included if a mileage was required since the wake turbulence would have dissipated by the time the trailing aircraft reaches the same point using mileage.
5-5-4 mentions:
"When operating within 2,500 feet of the flight path of the leading aircraft over the surface of the earth and less than 1,000 feet below"
Unless the large was 300 feet below the heavy, that doesn't apply either in your situation.
I think what aggravated me most about the situation is that he could have easily avoided by extending the heavy just a mile and having it behind the airbus and this wouldn’t even be a conversation. But then again, how would we have these discussions otherwise
