FAA considering old commercial space for facility consolidation

[32andBelow]

California isn’t “good” or “bad” it’s just profoundly more expensive than just about any other place. For a profession that’s taken a 30% functional pay cut due to inflation and a decline in purchasing power that’s a terrible combo. There are also huge gaps at facilities like that, older people who got the real estate deals of a generation from 2008-2010 and those who will struggle to get out of renting. If pay kept up, California wouldn’t be so bad. I hear the traffic is fun, some of the facilities have great management but you’re getting body blows financially, and it’s worse the lower level you get to. The cost of living is the primary reason everyone I know whose left CA facilities has cited.

Forget ZOA for a moment, the real struggles are the people at like level 6 Palo Alto and level 7 OAK.

For sure. I’ve said it a couple times but VFR tower shouldn’t even be the same job. It’s so far detached from everything else at this point. But it’s not just us it’s a lot of the population. Just think there’s people working at Walmart or McDonald’s in all these towns.

 

[Bandit117]

For sure. I’ve said it a couple times but VFR tower shouldn’t even be the same job. It’s so far detached from everything else at this point. But it’s not just us it’s a lot of the population. Just think there’s people working at Walmart or McDonald’s in all these towns.

Sure. And none of them bear the responsibility that a controller has.
A VFR tower is a 2152 just like you at the Z. It’s the same job. The agency has been fucking VFR towers with their outdated traffic count and complexity formulas. Reclassifying their jobs because you never worked there but think you understand what they do is retarded. back in the day, working at a lower level tower was still a solid income. Not anymore.
.
The retired atm at Palo Alto has an old house that controllers there rent rooms out of at a decent rate for the area but still an insane cost. Without that, no one I knew there would be getting by… their only hope was get out by any means necessary, applying for every supe bid, hardship, err, swap etc. They scrape by. But that level of getting by means that not getting scheduled for OT one week might have you hurting.

I grew up that way. My parents struggled a lot. I became an air traffic controller in part to make sure my family doesn’t struggle that way and it grinds my gears to see controllers getting the shaft so badly, through no fault of their own. The ones at PAO (and certainly other facilities), if they have a family, qualify for food stamps. This profession should at least pay enough to keep you from qualifying for public assistance.

 

[NightWatch]

Sure. And none of them bear the responsibility that a controller has.
A VFR tower is a 2152 just like you at the Z. It’s the same job. The agency has been fucking VFR towers with their outdated traffic count and complexity formulas. Reclassifying their jobs because you never worked there but think you understand what they do is retarded. back in the day, working at a lower level tower was still a solid income. Not anymore.
.
The retired atm at Palo Alto has an old house that controllers there rent rooms out of at a decent rate for the area but still an insane cost. Without that, no one I knew there would be getting by… their only hope was get out by any means necessary, applying for every supe bid, hardship, err, swap etc. They scrape by. But that level of getting by means that not getting scheduled for OT one week might have you hurting.

I grew up that way. My parents struggled a lot. I became an air traffic controller in part to make sure my family doesn’t struggle that way and it grinds my gears to see controllers getting the shaft so badly, through no fault of their own. The ones at PAO (and certainly other facilities), if they have a family, qualify for food stamps. This profession should at least pay enough to keep you from qualifying for public assistance.

A very strong reason why I think 32 (and yourself) are right in that the FAA needs to pull Midwest and Serco together and give federal level 6 and below towers all up a little at a time, consolidate the radar And retain all those FAA controllers to be ERR’d elsewhere to boost staffing across the NAS. This is another thing among several others NATCA should be all over, but alas…

 

[Bandit117]

A very strong reason why I think 32 (and yourself) are right in that the FAA needs to pull Midwest and Serco together and give federal level 6 and below towers all up a little at a time, consolidate the radar And retain all those FAA controllers to be ERR’d elsewhere to boost staffing across the NAS. This is another thing among several others NATCA should be all over, but alas…

This also goes along with proper pay. If they paid better, they could staff better. When pay starts to get cut, those at the bottom will hurt first. You see it all over the NAS already. People are pushing and kicking to get to a 10/11/12 becuase in some cases they have taken a 30%+ pay cut from getting stuck at their 4/5/6/7/8. The podunk Midwest mids aren’t that cheap anymore. Better than the coasts but a basic apartment that was under 1k is now 1500-2k in large swaths of the country.

Why would someone out of the academy want to go to a place like PAO? Maybe if you’re from there, but aside from that if offers nothing - VHCOL and a staffing situation most want out of. You’re basically signing up for the hunger games. This is another fundamental flaw in the FAAs placement model. That every facility is equally desirable. If you paid people properly, they wouldn’t be quitting

 

[32andBelow]

Sure. And none of them bear the responsibility that a controller has.
A VFR tower is a 2152 just like you at the Z. It’s the same job. The agency has been fucking VFR towers with their outdated traffic count and complexity formulas. Reclassifying their jobs because you never worked there but think you understand what they do is retarded. back in the day, working at a lower level tower was still a solid income. Not anymore.
.
The retired atm at Palo Alto has an old house that controllers there rent rooms out of at a decent rate for the area but still an insane cost. Without that, no one I knew there would be getting by… their only hope was get out by any means necessary, applying for every supe bid, hardship, err, swap etc. They scrape by. But that level of getting by means that not getting scheduled for OT one week might have you hurting.

I grew up that way. My parents struggled a lot. I became an air traffic controller in part to make sure my family doesn’t struggle that way and it grinds my gears to see controllers getting the shaft so badly, through no fault of their own. The ones at PAO (and certainly other facilities), if they have a family, qualify for food stamps. This profession should at least pay enough to keep you from qualifying for public assistance.

To be clear I’m not calling them not controllers. It’s just different type of controlling. When you apply to be a controller you should be able to apply for either radar or tower. Is more of what I meant. FSS is 2152 too and it’s a different hiring track.

 

[Bandit117]

A very strong reason why I think 32 (and yourself) are right in that the FAA needs to pull Midwest and Serco together and give federal level 6 and below towers all up a little at a time, consolidate the radar And retain all those FAA controllers to be ERR’d elsewhere to boost staffing across the NAS. This is another thing among several others NATCA should be all over, but alas…

Another issue is how badly the NeB is out of touch. It’s all people who spent the bulk of all of their careers are high level facilities making the big bucks and they have no idea what it’s like, stuck well below the median pay.

Drew macqueen, the RVp once tried to tell people Stuck at a crummy low level for years bc of ncept that they had to “put in their time”, that he delivered pizzas on the side when he was new at RHV… totally neglecting the fact that within less than 2 years of getting into the agency he went to level 10 SFO, then to 11 PHL then to 12 ZOB. His stint on the low end of scale was barely a moment, but he’s lecturing people stuck for 7,8 plus years making 1/3 of what he makes how they should be grateful and stop complaining

 

[DankVectorz]

For sure. I’ve said it a couple times but VFR tower shouldn’t even be the same job. It’s so far detached from everything else at this point. But it’s not just us it’s a lot of the population. Just think there’s people working at Walmart or McDonald’s in all these towns.

Unpopular opinion but any airport that doesn’t have 121 passenger service should have state/local/private ATC in the tower rather than federal.

 

[Bandit117]

Unpopular opinion but any airport that doesn’t have 121 passenger service should have state/local/private ATC in the tower rather than federal.

There’s a lot of VFR towers that are much busier than ones with part 121 flights. Under that guideline level 4 Muskegon Michigan tower would be kept an FAA tower while shit kicking busy van nuys, falcon, deer valley, and teterboro would all revert to state control. You want the state of New Jersey to be in charge of staffing at TEB?

 

[AB19]

To be clear I’m not calling them not controllers. It’s just different type of controlling. When you apply to be a controller you should be able to apply for either radar or tower. Is more of what I meant. FSS is 2152 too and it’s a different hiring track.

The FAA could just pay everyone the same

 

[KP-ATC]

The FAA could just pay everyone the same

Then everyone will be trying to work the podunk towers

 

[DankVectorz]

There’s a lot of VFR towers that are much busier than ones with part 121 flights. Under that guideline level 4 Muskegon Michigan tower would be kept an FAA tower while shit kicking busy van nuys, falcon, deer valley, and teterboro would all revert to state control. You want the state of New Jersey to be in charge of staffing at TEB?

I don’t care how busy it is. I’d prefer my tax dollars not fund (or as little as possible) corporate airports. And if state/local was in charge of staffing their airports they could hire local which probably means better staffing long term. Plus state government pensions a whole lot better than Federal usually. And if the way the FAA staffs facilities is the bar they have certainly set it pretty low.

 

[Bandit117]

Then everyone will be trying to work the podunk towers

I don’t think that’s true. People don’t want to stay in Bismarck North Dakota or Grand Canyon (3 hours away from a major store). It would mean that people would move deliberately to where they want to be, not where they might get picked up just to get out and get a raise.

Most controllers are the type of personality who want a challenge and will get bored being stagnant for too long. There’s plenty of people now who would forgo a pay raise if they could, just to work somewhere new and more challenging, because they have been stuck

I don’t care how busy it is. I’d prefer my tax dollars not fund (or as little as possible) corporate airports. And if state/local was in charge of staffing their airports they could hire local which probably means better staffing long term. Plus state government pensions a whole lot better than Federal usually. And if the way the FAA staffs facilities is the bar they have certainly set it pretty low.

Those airports aren’t just corporate, they are GA, flight school, life flight, any many more types of operators.

Why should a 121 carrier get what’s essentially government welfare under your proposal for their bases of operations, like ATL, ORD and JFK while Joe taxpayer doesn’t get shit for his 172, or even other aviation companies who are not 121 carriers?

Airports are infrastructure, and they provide value back to the taxpayer, regardless of 121 carrier ops or not. The problem is the agency lacks the ability to mange any of it properly because they keep promoting people who would otherwise qualify for the special Olympics.

Tim arel was a low functioning alcoholic and I’ve met GMs who either couldn’t speak in complete sentences or didn’t know the difference between IFR and VFR. Before that you had Teri Bristol who was never ever an air traffic controller and never once plugged in, who, as the staffing crisis began to precipitate said, when asked about it at a faama conference, that her biggest priority was getting more women into management roles and getting women in change would fix it all.

 

[32andBelow]

The FAA could just pay everyone the same

I’d be fine with everyone getting the cap. If locality was actually accurate then you could still get big swings between areas. Plus premiums and OT

 

[AB19]

Then everyone will be trying to work the podunk towers

Everyone in Australia doesn't want to live in Alice Springs despite it being slow as fuck

 

[RalphBeast]

I don’t think that’s true. People don’t want to stay in Bismarck North Dakota or Grand Canyon (3 hours away from a major store). It would mean that people would move deliberately to where they want to be, not where they might get picked up just to get out and get a raise.

Most controllers are the type of personality who want a challenge and will get bored being stagnant for too long. There’s plenty of people who would forgo a pay raise just to work somewhere new and more challenging.

Bismarck metro area is like 150k people and their projected staffing is 102%. What is your beef with Bismark dude

 

[Bandit117]

Bismarck metro area is like 130k people and their projected staffing is 102%. What is your beef with Bismark dude

With a full up number of 13, a 100% pass rate and an .99 year training time and a flow of academy grads it took them almost a decade to release anyone under ncept. People were quitting, hard shipping, etc. I can also bet that most people who work there don’t want to stay there, unless it’s home. It’s just a model of how the system can’t account for outliers and places people don’t want to be.

Nothing against the place it’s just an example of a historical place that has struggled with staffing because it’s much less desirable. Maybe you’d prefer if I said Shreveport? Roswell? Midland?

 

[RalphBeast]

With a full up number of 13 and a flow of academy grads it took them almost a decade to release anyone under ncept. People were quitting, hard shipping, etc. I can also bet that most people who work there don’t want to stay there, unless it’s home

Nothing against the place it’s just an example of a historical place that has struggled with staffing because it’s much less desirable. Maybe you’d prefer if I said Shreveport? Roswell? Midland?

Nah, they should just go to local hiring. Hard to believe it's so difficult to find 15 people in a metro area of 150k for a $100k/yr federal gig. And no mids!

 

[Bandit117]

Nah, they should just go to local hiring. Hard to believe it's so difficult to find 15 people in a metro area of 150k for a $100k/yr federal gig. And no mids!

That’s peanuts there dude. Bismarck is the gateway to the oil patch, you can make more easily, all the company stuff is up there, since you can’t get good flights to Williston. Housing is up a lot out there as well. It went up during the oil boom, last I heard you’re looking at 400k on average for a house. Previously, before the oil boom it was a place where you could work at a gas station and still buy a house. That 400k is a decent swing on level 5 pay (starts at 81k out there).

Local hiring is fine to get people in the door, until after they get in and learn they can make 200k plus at say ZMP. Some might stay but a non zero chunk of local hires will want to advance up the pay band when they learn about it

 

[NightWatch]

Bismarck metro area is like 150k people and their projected staffing is 102%. What is your beef with Bismark dude

Yeah but don’t they have a ton of NESTers there rn?

 

[Shikaka]

WhY dOnT wE hIrE lOcAl At AsPeN aNd NaNtUcKeT