Facility Downgrades / Upgrades

The M stands for machine as in killing machine when Boeing doesn’t tell pilots about changes to MCAS

Genuine question on the Center front…

Do we actually think NATCA wants ABACUS (the center traffic count program) to succeed? Or do they want it to fail?

My understanding is the program is approaching its financial death date before ever actually gathering any data.

Are NATCAs interests purely keeping the higher level facilities out east?

Redacted said:

Genuine question on the Center front…

Do we actually think NATCA wants ABACUS (the center traffic count program) to succeed? Or do they want it to fail?

My understanding is the program is approaching its financial death date before ever actually gathering any data.

Are NATCAs interests purely keeping the higher level facilities out east?

What do you mean by keeping higher level facilities out east?

It feels as if they want ABACUS to fail because it’ll result in several facilities in the Northeast being downgraded while places like ZJX and ZDV would be upgraded

In the brains of anyone at or associated with a level 12, ABACUS purely poses a threat.

Redacted said:

It feels as if they want ABACUS to fail because it’ll result in several facilities in the Northeast being downgraded while places like ZJX and ZDV would be upgraded

In the brains of anyone at or associated with a level 12, ABACUS purely poses a threat.

I think it only poses a threat to those that aren’t actually working the level or complexity of traffic that their levels say they are. If you aren’t, then you aren’t. You can’t control the airlines and GA pilots to make them fly more with your facility.

I just don’t see why NATCA would oppose a more accurate traffic count process. That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t want to renegotiate the values needed for the different levels though if things got crazy.

Redacted said:

Genuine question on the Center front…

Do we actually think NATCA wants ABACUS (the center traffic count program) to succeed? Or do they want it to fail?

My understanding is the program is approaching its financial death date before ever actually gathering any data.

Are NATCAs interests purely keeping the higher level facilities out east?

They tell us all the time that it is gathering data 🤔

Move78 said:

I don’t understand this take. You need 29% locality to get to the congressional cap as a 12 cpc. Adding a 13 would increase wages

You guys really think passenger count is a better metric for Appendix A than operations? You’re gonna take all the 9 vfr towers that are already underpaid and make them 5s.
Sorry I know you just did 100 ops in the pattern last hour but there’s only 2 guys in the plane so it counts the same as 1 triple 7 overflight. Womp womp noise.

SFO tower is level 10 and the top of the band hits the congressional cap.

Seeyoufly said:

SFO tower is level 10 and the top of the band hits the congressional cap.

And…

AB19 said:

And…

Again I don’t understand what adding a level 13 would do….it would just raise the starting wage of a 13 and make them cap out faster than a 12….if it was in line with the difference of a 11, it would be a relatively small increase (like 5k a year).

Redacted said:

It feels as if they want ABACUS to fail because it’ll result in several facilities in the Northeast being downgraded while places like ZJX and ZDV would be upgraded

In the brains of anyone at or associated with a level 12, ABACUS purely poses a threat.

Z levels are so weird. If the traffic count grows they build more sectors and eventually more areas. Within a center there can be a 30-40% difference in volume based on area. At the end of the count we can only guarantee 1 thing, and it’s that someone will be upset.

God maxing out at 200k sounds so terrible.

Seeyoufly said:

Again I don’t understand what adding a level 13 would do….it would just raise the starting wage of a 13 and make them cap out faster than a 12….if it was in line with the difference of a 11, it would be a relatively small increase (like 5k a year).

I still don’t get what’s so confusing here. Are you capped and are missing everything that happens below you? It’s another level. It would raise the salaries of everyone that was a 13 unless you were already capped. What does “some of us are already capped” have to do with anything? There are plenty of buildings that don’t hit the congressional cap in the cpc band.

bravounite33 said:

Again, Southwest’s B738 and B38M hold the exact same amount of people…

Southwest Seat Maps

And I’m well aware of what the M means. I work them every single day.

And FYI, the Max and 800 are the exact same length, technically the Max is a hair shorter in height but that doesn’t matter. The differences with the planes isn’t in the cabin at all. The B38M you are referring to that has that many seats is the Max 200 variant of the 8, which no US carrier flies. It gets that many seats because it uses slimline seats and has an extra pair of exits that is required to get those extra seats in as the 800 and 8 Max are already at their regulatory limit due to exits.

Maybe the Southwest versions do but I never argued that. The UAL Max holds more than the Southwest version. Then you add in the B737-700 to compare and its an even larger gap.

Also Boeing says you're wrong:
The B738 is 129 ft 6 in long.
The B38M is 129 ft 8 in long.

Now argue whatever you want, Boeing says you're wrong and I won't continue the convo.

Oh and up until 2017 Southwest had the B737-300, with a max of 149 seats.

There should be a level….15

DonnyDarcycle said:

There should be a level….15

I think there should be a level 1000

Seeyoufly said:

What would level 13 do? The pay cap will still be the pay cap...and we already have level 10s hitting the law limited cap. I don't disagree that a rework is in order, but I don't know that adding a "level 13" fixes anything.

Cap them out sooner. Some places are working 1million plus Ops. There is such a huge gap between those places and the other 12s on the low end of the band.

CoffeeIV said:

Maybe the Southwest versions do but I never argued that. The UAL Max holds more than the Southwest version. Then you add in the B737-700 to compare and its an even larger gap.

Also Boeing says you're wrong:
The B738 is 129 ft 6 in long.
The B38M is 129 ft 8 in long.

Now argue whatever you want, Boeing says you're wrong and I won't continue the convo.

Oh and up until 2017 Southwest had the B737-300, with a max of 149 seats.

CoffeeIV said:

You could expand on the program and be an either/or type thing. If traffic is down but passengers up you can upgrade or vice versa. Pattern traffic pays for gas which pays fees for the FAA budget as well.

I'm just trying to come up with ways to increase pay for all of us. As it stands, some airlines like Southwest continue to get more B737 Maxes which hold a lot more passengers than the 700 and 800 series. More downgrades will happen at this rate imo.

Just brought up Southwest because you did…

But if you want to be technical, no United’s Max versions both the 8 and 9 don’t have more than Southwest and neither does Americans. United and American don’t run all economy so they’ll never have the same as Southwest with their first and comfort plus type seats. But United’s Max 8 has the same number of seats as their 800, their Max 9 has the same as their 900 and American’s Max 8 has the same as their 800.

And forgive the rounding error with the length of the plane. Again as I said originally, it and the height doesn’t really matter in this discussion because it’s such a small difference. My wife who funny enough works for Boeing as an engineer, apologizes for the error.

I don’t care what happens in terms of a new count as long as that fucking survey guy gets a multiplier of like 1000x.

Redacted said:

It feels as if they want ABACUS to fail because it’ll result in several facilities in the Northeast being downgraded while places like ZJX and ZDV would be upgraded

In the brains of anyone at or associated with a level 12, ABACUS purely poses a threat.

What's with all this talk about ZDV needing to be upgraded, from what I hear all they do is send ZLA stacks all day. ZDV should get iHop pay stacking planes like pancakes 🥞

You have facilities like ATL and ORD who do a milli plus ops and rightfully deserve their own level but are a 12 nonetheless. Yet still you have facilities like… MIA who are also a 12 😬 Miami is a scam and I’m unapologetic of my stance.