Facility Downgrades / Upgrades

[CoffeeIV]

ORD won’t get downgraded. I can the the NY Metroplex dropping to a 10 though especially with airline reductions.

The level system needs to be reworked. Larger planes and fewer of them. More and more facilities getting downgraded yet passenger counts were soaring pre-COVID and looking like a comeback this year. 2019 had the most passengers ever in the US with a little over 1 billion. Most of the FAA's budget is made from the taxes/fees passengers pay.

 

[Bandit117]

The level system needs to be reworked. Larger planes and fewer of them. More and more facilities getting downgraded yet passenger counts were soaring pre-COVID and looking like a comeback this year. 2019 had the most passengers ever in the US with a little over 1 billion. Most of the FAA's budget is made from the taxes/fees passengers pay.

I don’t agree with you a lot, but you’re 100% right. These downgrades are a stealth pay cut. The TCI levels need to be reevaluated and adjusted. You have a few outliers, maybe it’s time for a level 13. MSP went from an 11 to a 9 despite more pax than ever before. The industry has a vastly different footprint than it did pre-9/11 and now post Covid, and it’s insanity to hold fast to count standards that are over 20 years old when it’s having an overall negative effect on downgrades. Fewer high level facilities is not good

 

[GulfCharlie]

The level system needs to be reworked. Larger planes and fewer of them. More and more facilities getting downgraded yet passenger counts were soaring pre-COVID and looking like a comeback this year. 2019 had the most passengers ever in the US with a little over 1 billion. Most of the FAA's budget is made from the taxes/fees passengers pay.

I can support this 100%, but we need the Union to push for it just like the did for reclass.

 

[rhombus]

The level system needs to be reworked. Larger planes and fewer of them. More and more facilities getting downgraded yet passenger counts were soaring pre-COVID and looking like a comeback this year. 2019 had the most passengers ever in the US with a little over 1 billion. Most of the FAA's budget is made from the taxes/fees passengers pay.

Generally this is a good idea and it would be great to see it incorporated into the complexity formula. But how would that help airports like MSP and DTW where both traffic count AND passenger count is down?

 

[Bandit117]

Generally this is a good idea and it would be great to see it incorporated into the complexity formula. But how would that help airports like MSP and DTW where both traffic count AND passenger count is down?

IIRC MSP is having record pax counts, but the regionals have cut back a ton lowering them flight count. Could be wrong, but that’s what I’m told

 

[CoffeeIV]

Fun fact: MSP in 2014 had

Generally this is a good idea and it would be great to see it incorporated into the complexity formula. But how would that help airports like MSP and DTW where both traffic count AND passenger count is down?

MSP's passenger count was about 10% higher in 2019 compared to 2014 according to their spreadsheets. Also I thought the FAA/NATCA had said no one would get downgraded due to COVID or maybe Im misremembering. Passenger counts are just coming back this year. I'd have to look at DTW.

 

[Seeyoufly]

I don’t agree with you a lot, but you’re 100% right. These downgrades are a stealth pay cut. The TCI levels need to be reevaluated and adjusted. You have a few outliers, maybe it’s time for a level 13. MSP went from an 11 to a 9 despite more pax than ever before. The industry has a vastly different footprint than it did pre-9/11 and now post Covid, and it’s insanity to hold fast to count standards that are over 20 years old when it’s having an overall negative effect on downgrades. Fewer high level facilities is not good

What would level 13 do? The pay cap will still be the pay cap...and we already have level 10s hitting the law limited cap. I don't disagree that a rework is in order, but I don't know that adding a "level 13" fixes anything.

 

[rhombus]

Fun fact: MSP in 2014 had

MSP's passenger count was about 10% higher in 2019 compared to 2014 according to their spreadsheets. Also I thought the FAA/NATCA had said no one would get downgraded due to COVID or maybe Im misremembering. Passenger counts are just coming back this year. I'd have to look at DTW.

I remember them saying that but they didn’t include a time table. Many airports were essentially back to 2019 numbers in 2022 so that’s probably when the moratorium ended. MSP didn’t recover like other airports did, hence the downgrade. I’d be shocked if they don’t at least get back to a 10 eventually

 

[CoffeeIV]

I remember them saying that but they didn’t include a time table. Many airports were essentially back to 2019 numbers in 2022 so that’s probably when the moratorium ended. MSP didn’t recover like other airports did, hence the downgrade. I’d be shocked if they don’t at least get back to a 10 eventually

DTW also had their highest passenger count ever in 2019. Seems nationally in 2022 we were still down about 8% domestically and 11% internationally per the DoT.

I think that's the same for my airport, so hopefully we don't get downgraded. But hey, downgrade now and get upgraded again for that 6% might be nice.

 

[Motodog]

I remember them saying that but they didn’t include a time table. Many airports were essentially back to 2019 numbers in 2022 so that’s probably when the moratorium ended. MSP didn’t recover like other airports did, hence the downgrade. I’d be shocked if they don’t at least get back to a 10 eventually

Hope so, always liked working there. But hard to see it happening, as Delta continues to move flying outta there (clsd MSP 757/767 crew base), move flying to ATL, Kennedy etc

 

[AB19]

What would level 13 do? The pay cap will still be the pay cap...and we already have level 10s hitting the law limited cap. I don't disagree that a rework is in order, but I don't know that adding a "level 13" fixes anything.

It would make you get there as a transfer a lot sooner

 

[GoodEnough]

What would level 13 do? The pay cap will still be the pay cap...and we already have level 10s hitting the law limited cap. I don't disagree that a rework is in order, but I don't know that adding a "level 13" fixes anything.

It would get you to the cap sooner at least by closing the gap from the base to the cap. There’s a relatively small percentage of people at the cap so it would help a lot of people that aren’t even close. I personally don’t feel bad for people getting capped, but then again I don’t know what that’s like. I’ll join in on the complaining if I ever make that much

 

[RalphBeast]

IIRC MSP is having record pax counts, but the regionals have cut back a ton lowering them flight count. Could be wrong, but that’s what I’m told

MSP is an interesting beast. It used to have a billion little dinky regional jets which gave it an unusually high ops count relative to the number of pax it handled. Lots of 40-50 seaters flying in from the Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, Iowa, etc. Even in 2019, which was a peak year for MSP pax, ops were down 10% over 2009 whereas every other major airport was up significantly over that same time period.

It's insanity that MSP at lvl 11 was considered just a notch below facilities like LAX, ORD, C90, N90, etc.

 

[Move78]

What would level 13 do? The pay cap will still be the pay cap...and we already have level 10s hitting the law limited cap. I don't disagree that a rework is in order, but I don't know that adding a "level 13" fixes anything.

I don’t understand this take. You need 29% locality to get to the congressional cap as a 12 cpc. Adding a 13 would increase wages

You guys really think passenger count is a better metric for Appendix A than operations? You’re gonna take all the 9 vfr towers that are already underpaid and make them 5s.
Sorry I know you just did 100 ops in the pattern last hour but there’s only 2 guys in the plane so it counts the same as 1 triple 7 overflight. Womp womp noise.

 

[CoffeeIV]

You guys really think passenger count is a better metric for Appendix A than operations? You’re gonna take all the 9 vfr towers that are already underpaid and make them 5s.
Sorry I know you just did 100 ops in the pattern last hour but there’s only 2 guys in the plane so it counts the same as 1 triple 7 overflight. Womp womp noise.

You could expand on the program and be an either/or type thing. If traffic is down but passengers up you can upgrade or vice versa. Pattern traffic pays for gas which pays fees for the FAA budget as well.

I'm just trying to come up with ways to increase pay for all of us. As it stands, some airlines like Southwest continue to get more B737 Maxes which hold a lot more passengers than the 700 and 800 series. More downgrades will happen at this rate imo.

 

[AB19]

I don’t understand this take. You need 29% locality to get to the congressional cap as a 12 cpc. Adding a 13 would increase wages

You guys really think passenger count is a better metric for Appendix A than operations? You’re gonna take all the 9 vfr towers that are already underpaid and make them 5s.
Sorry I know you just did 100 ops in the pattern last hour but there’s only 2 guys in the plane so it counts the same as 1 triple 7 overflight. Womp womp noise.

Add level 14 in there too I won’t complain

 

[bravounite33]

You could expand on the program and be an either/or type thing. If traffic is down but passengers up you can upgrade or vice versa. Pattern traffic pays for gas which pays fees for the FAA budget as well.

I'm just trying to come up with ways to increase pay for all of us. As it stands, some airlines like Southwest continue to get more B737 Maxes which hold a lot more passengers than the 700 and 800 series. More downgrades will happen at this rate imo.

Southwest’s B738 and B38M hold the exact same amount of passengers…

I don’t get the passengers argument in general. I’m always for finding ways to increase our pay but I don't get why controllers would ever care at all about the passengers a plane has on board. We care about the airplanes because that’s what we separate and work. Now if the airlines are upgrading to heavies, I could buy that argument as our ops count will naturally drop with that but our complexity rises with the extra requirements due to those aircraft. But a CRJ going up to a 737, sorry but that’s not the same argument.

 

[CoffeeIV]

Southwest’s B738 and B38M hold the exact same amount of passengers…

I don’t get the passengers argument in general. I’m always for finding ways to increase our pay but I don't get why controllers would ever care at all about the passengers a plane has on board. We care about the airplanes because that’s what we separate and work. Now if the airlines are upgrading to heavies, I could buy that argument as our ops count will naturally drop with that but our complexity rises with the extra requirements due to those aircraft. But a CRJ going up to a 737, sorry but that’s not the same argument.

B737-700 series has a max capacity of 149 seats.

B738 has a max capacity of 189 seats

B38M has a max capacity of 210 seats

Huge differences in those planes. Also the B738 isn't a max. The M in the aircraft type is what tells you it's a max. Come on.

 

[AB19]

B737-700 series has a max capacity of 149 seats.

B738 has a max capacity of 189 seats

B38M has a max capacity of 210 seats

Huge differences in those planes. Also the B738 isn't a max. The M in the aircraft type is what tells you it's a max. Come on.

They both hold at least 189 therefore they hold the same amount checkmate libtard.

 

[bravounite33]

B737-700 series has a max capacity of 149 seats.

B738 has a max capacity of 189 seats

B38M has a max capacity of 210 seats

Huge differences in those planes. Also the B738 isn't a max. The M in the aircraft type is what tells you it's a max. Come on.

Again, Southwest’s B738 and B38M hold the exact same amount of people…

Southwest Seat Maps

And I’m well aware of what the M means. I work them every single day.

And FYI, the Max and 800 are the exact same length, technically the Max is a hair shorter in height but that doesn’t matter. The differences with the planes isn’t in the cabin at all. The B38M you are referring to that has that many seats is the Max 200 variant of the 8, which no US carrier flies. It gets that many seats because it uses slimline seats and has an extra pair of exits that is required to get those extra seats in as the 800 and 8 Max are already at their regulatory limit due to exits.