Facility Downgrades / Upgrades

[Spiralbox21]

The most important facility in the nas? You don't have the big picture...

View attachment 9588

Ah yes, the REAL backbone of air traffic control. The real controllers.

 

[RH316]

While we’re at it, shut ACK and ASE down. Why is the FAA sending controllers to work in rich people vacation spots while paying the workforce nowhere near enough to live in that area?

Agreed. If the rich want a controlled tower, they can afford it.

 

[Phanatical]

Agreed. If the rich want a controlled tower, they can afford it.

It’s not that easy when commercial (read: public) flights operate daily.

 

[tink]

When did BJC get upgraded?

 

[Phanatical]

When did BJC get upgraded?

Last March?

 

[GulfCharlie]

And the downgrade hits just keep coming. They're encroaching a fine line where people will be able to find remote jobs that pay equal or more than some of these facilities and you won't have to be stuck in a city like Shreveport.

You rang Union Daddy?

 

[HoodyMerganser]

What FPL are you ?

Half of the NAS can be beat by DOD ATC jobs and some contract jobs. Take being at a 4 or 5 you can make more money with a contract job.

Now, with a career change in the private sector you can’t be any further from the truth. The pension is what keeps people from quitting

Agreed, and If you are stuck at a 5,6, and maybe a 7 up/down and aren’t applying for DOD jobs (GS11/12) you are missing out on money/quality of life

 

[abc1234]

Agreed. If the rich want a controlled tower, they can afford it.

For real- billionaires pay a CPC's yearly salary on one flight in and out of ACK. They should charge ATC user fees for that island to pay for the controllers and subsidize housing.

Here's some fun math:

Roughly 24,000 GA operations at Nantucket from July 2022-July 2023. There are 11 CPCs (not sure what their new numbers are going to) who currently make what, $120,000? Cost of rent and home ownership is unlike anywhere else in the country.

The implementation of a $100 "ATC surcharge" per operation will create a fund of approximately $2.4 million per year, when divided by 11 CPCs could give them a salary of $218,000. You could do a $150 fee, pay them the federal cap plus a $100k annual housing allowance. The opportunity is there. It's just the part where our government is run by billionaires, so it won't happen. But if anyone had balls they could just threaten to close ACK or implement a user fee.

 

[KP-ATC]

For real- billionaires pay a CPC's yearly salary on one flight in and out of ACK. They should charge ATC user fees for that island to pay for the controllers and subsidize housing.

Here's some fun math:

Roughly 24,000 GA operations at Nantucket from July 2022-July 2023. There are 11 CPCs (not sure what their new numbers are going to) who currently make what, $120,000? Cost of rent and home ownership is unlike anywhere else in the country.

The implementation of a $100 "ATC surcharge" per operation will create a fund of approximately $2.4 million per year, when divided by 11 CPCs could give them a salary of $218,000. You could do a $150 fee, pay them the federal cap plus a $100k annual housing allowance. The opportunity is there. It's just the part where our government is run by billionaires, so it won't happen. But if anyone had balls they could just threaten to close ACK or implement a user fee.

That wouldn't work for a bunch of reasons

 

[abc1234]

That wouldn't work for a bunch of reasons

Yeah, well, we all know that. Isn't this forum strictly for posting unreasonable asks that we know the agency will never grant?

 

[RalphBeast]

Don't understand what the big fuss is. I am from the Chicago area and got ZAU out of the academy. Chilled with the parents while training, married, we lived with my parents another 2 years. We almost paid for our first house in cash. Lived there for 2 years, and it's now a paid-off rental generating $3.5k/month. At our current home, we are locked in at 3% interest for another 20 years. Wife earns $90k/year, I'm a CPC at ZAU that work a moderate amount of OT.

My advice - it's enroute or bust nowadays baby. Level 11-12 pay for life or GTFO.

 

[Nothanks]

Don't understand what the big fuss is. I am from the Chicago area and got ZAU out of the academy. Chilled with the parents while training, married, we lived with my parents another 2 years. We almost paid for our first house in cash. Lived there for 2 years, and it's now a paid-off rental generating $3.5k/month. At our current home, we are locked in at 3% interest for another 20 years. Wife earns $90k/year, I'm a CPC at ZAU that work a moderate amount of OT.

My advice - it's enroute or bust nowadays baby. Level 11-12 pay for life or GTFO.

People want to work at a level 7, have a stay at home wife, kids, and be able to afford a white picket fenced house and vacation whenever they want.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

Don't understand what the big fuss is. I am from the Chicago area and got ZAU out of the academy. Chilled with the parents while training, married, we lived with my parents another 2 years. We almost paid for our first house in cash. Lived there for 2 years, and it's now a paid-off rental generating $3.5k/month. At our current home, we are locked in at 3% interest for another 20 years. Wife earns $90k/year, I'm a CPC at ZAU that work a moderate amount of OT.

My advice - it's enroute or bust nowadays baby. Level 11-12 pay for life or GTFO.

Bro

 

[RalphBeast]

People want to work at a level 7, have a stay at home wife, kids, and be able to afford a white picket fenced house and vacation whenever they want.

You can have that life at all but 4-5 Zs, except the vacation part.

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

People want to work at a level 7, have a stay at home wife, kids, and be able to afford a white picket fenced house and vacation whenever they want.

FTFY.

Following the 50/30/20 rule of financial planning, there is no state in the US where that is possible with a salary less than $110k. And if your suggestion is anything more austere than the 50/30/20 rule, you are implying something definitively less than middle class.

Even MIT's Living Wage calculator shows level 4 & 5 pay doesn't cut it for the lowest COL areas in the nation to survive at the baseline of being a productive member of society. Not included in the calculations are "luxuries" like owning a home instead of renting, and retirement contributions.

 

[Spiralbox21]

Don't understand what the big fuss is. I am from the Chicago area and got ZAU out of the academy. Chilled with the parents while training, married, we lived with my parents another 2 years. We almost paid for our first house in cash. Lived there for 2 years, and it's now a paid-off rental generating $3.5k/month. At our current home, we are locked in at 3% interest for another 20 years. Wife earns $90k/year, I'm a CPC at ZAU that work a moderate amount of OT.

My advice - it's enroute or bust nowadays baby. Level 11-12 pay for life or GTFO.

Honestly. Anyone here do the jump from a 5 tower to a Z? Whats the learning curve like? Only way im getting my family where they want to be.

 

[RalphBeast]

Honestly. Anyone here do the jump from a 5 tower to a Z? Whats the learning curve like? Only way im getting my family where they want to be.

One thing about many Zs (prob same story with consolidated TRACONs) is that your success heavily depends on the area you are assigned to. The areas can be heavily unbalanced traffic/complexity/difficulty wise. And to make things better, the harder areas with higher wash rates are often lower-staffed, which makes training harder, which propagates the feedback loop and the trainers tend to be... more direct which offends sensitive types.

I work at a 12 in the busiest/most complex area. Low level transfers are basically treated as OTS hires. Success rates are similar. Best advice IMO is to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and LISTEN. Do not ever talk about your previous facility. IDGAF you rocked the house pushing 10AC and hour. Do not act like a rock star.

It's doable, and IMO working busy challenging enroute traffic is very rewarding - time goes by fast. Best part is that there are far fewer morons in the difficult areas, even our worst CPC is minimally competent. I don't feel nervous when I or my family flies through our airspace. Can't say the same about the idiots on the other side of the building, who somehow manage to f***ck up 2x more than us despite having better staffing and way easier traffic.

If it's the only way you can get home, then go for it broski. Love you man.

 

[TEST35]

I work at a 12 in the busiest/most complex area. Low level transfers are basically treated as OTS hires. Success rates are similar. Best advice IMO is to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and LISTEN. Do not ever talk about your previous facility. IDGAF you rocked the house pushing 10AC and hour. Do not act like a rock star.

You think I’m NOT going into my Z day one and telling them how I worked 3 in the pattern one time? Please…

 

[corn4ahead]

One thing about many Zs (prob same story with consolidated TRACONs) is that your success heavily depends on the area you are assigned to. The areas can be heavily unbalanced traffic/complexity/difficulty wise. And to make things better, the harder areas with higher wash rates are often lower-staffed, which makes training harder, which propagates the feedback loop and the trainers tend to be... more direct which offends sensitive types.

I work at a 12 in the busiest/most complex area. Low level transfers are basically treated as OTS hires. Success rates are similar. Best advice IMO is to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and LISTEN. Do not ever talk about your previous facility. IDGAF you rocked the house pushing 10AC and hour. Do not act like a rock star.

It's doable, and IMO working busy challenging enroute traffic is very rewarding - time goes by fast. Best part is that there are far fewer morons in the difficult areas, even our worst CPC is minimally competent. I don't feel nervous when I or my family flies through our airspace. Can't say the same about the idiots on the other side of the building, who somehow manage to f***ck up 2x more than us despite having better staffing and way easier traffic.

If it's the only way you can get home, then go for it broski. Love you man.

This is pretty spot on. I was a level 6 to level 8 to most complex area of my 12 Z. Extremely accurate.

 

[slowtation]

Honestly. Anyone here do the jump from a 5 tower to a Z? Whats the learning curve like? Only way im getting my family where they want to be.

The cards are stacked against you right when you walk in the door. Surely you’ve seen the comments on here and Reddit from center controllers who absolutely love getting tower transfers. There was this one comment, from a guy who is now at HQ no less, who said he’d rather train fresh enroute grads than CPC-ITs from towers for no other reason than at least the AG’s already know the keyboard.

That’s a load of BS. The enroute academy does almost nothing to really prepare someone for a real Z. It’s a different ballgame entirely once you get to a real Z. The ERAM keyboard is quite different than STARS but once you figure it out, you’ll find the ERAM keyboard to be a much more efficient and fluid device.

The biggest hurdle will be the enormous difference in information you need to know. You probably have what, one or two LOAs that are actually important? At a Z it’s more like 8+. Each approach, each tower, each military unit, and each bordering Z. Plus the SOP. Plus the 30 or 40 frequencies. Nevermind the map with probably 100 or more fixes and airways you’ll need to know plus all the stratifications, MEA’s, MVA’s (if applicable), etc. But you know what? AG’s aren’t being asked to learn that amount of information in OKC. There’s no telling how you’ll do with that information overload until you get there.

The keyboard is just one part of it. You’ll have plenty of time monitoring and in the lab to figure that out. You’ll do way more typing and talking at Z than you did in the tower. And you can always just load the side of the scope up with macro’s when you certify anyway.