Facility Downgrades / Upgrades

[Logical_Mongoose]

Speaking of facility levels, I saw Rich speak recently and one thing he mentioned was that he thinks there are too many levels, which I'm kind of on board with. Though I wonder if the stakes would be even higher if you consolidated from nine different levels down to four or five... you'd still be having these same arguments on the edges. The solution to that would be to make the pay difference pretty minimal between one level and the next, but if you did that you'd have the high-level controllers complaining about how hard they work compared to places like APC/DAY/POU for "only" so much more per year.

If we are talking from a recruitment and retention perspective: there are too many levels and the range of the pay bands are too great. You could restructure it from 9 facility levels down to 5 or whatever you want, but if the lowest facility level is still a $66k CPC starting salary then you aren't going to attract and reliably retain employees for the long haul. Same goes for AG and D1/2/3 pay bands.

And some pie-in-the-sky solution for leveling out the facility levels would be reworking something like CIP to be a yearly assessed bonus that goes to the busiest facilities using criteria that I am sure no one would have problems with or be able to easily poke holes in. 🤣

 

[Robert_Boucher]

PNS too

Y'all don't deserve a raise, barely doing any work over there.

 

[KP-ATC]

FAA: The 804s will continue until morale improves.

Speaking of facility levels, I saw Rich speak recently and one thing he mentioned was that he thinks there are too many levels, which I'm kind of on board with. Though I wonder if the stakes would be even higher if you consolidated from nine different levels down to four or five... you'd still be having these same arguments on the edges. The solution to that would be to make the pay difference pretty minimal between one level and the next, but if you did that you'd have the high-level controllers complaining about how hard they work compared to places like APC/DAY/POU for "only" so much more per year.

Basically controllers are our own worst enemies.

We had fewer levels before re-class.

 

[MJ]

We had fewer levels before re-class.

 

[BCHOOSIER]

But if every updown split, a lot of yall would be making a lot less money.

That rule works for most facilities. If a TRACON split sectors into two facilities, their TCI and traffic count would decrease. Same for a center. If you split the facility by sectors...oh wait never mind. At the end of the day, you can't consider half the facility's numbers and positions and completely ignore the other half. Up/down controllers train, work, and stay current in two facility types and in most cases it takes longer to train in those facilities. Instead of shitting on up/downs maybe you should be advocating for more stand-alone towers and TRACONs combining for big raises.

 

[SquawkHijack]

The one facility type that shouldn't even be remotely complaining about TCI are updowns. A 9 updown is usually slower in the tower than a 9 tower only and slower on radar than a 9 tracon.

Did you forget about the whole tower AND radar thing and knowing the rules associated with both? Okay, the tower numbers are boosted by tracon numbers at an up/down. Theres a reason the agency has an algorithm for higher pay at up/downs…

With your little moot argument out of the way, added complexity is why they earn the pay they do. I’ve worked tower pattern traffic of various types then had to go straight down to the tracon and get my ass kicked on approach.

Plus, the level and pay at up/downs is adjusted for up/downgrade under the TCI like everyone else so what in conclusion is your problem with up/downs?

 

[Soul_Controller]

That rule works for most facilities. If a TRACON split sectors into two facilities, their TCI and traffic count would decrease. Same for a center. If you split the facility by sectors...oh wait never mind. At the end of the day, you can't consider half the facility's numbers and positions and completely ignore the other half. Up/down controllers train, work, and stay current in two facility types and in most cases it takes longer to train in those facilities. Instead of shitting on up/downs maybe you should be advocating for more stand-alone towers and TRACONs combining for big raises.

Im just saying that when people cry about TCI, they usually ignore the parts that are benefiting them.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Don’t worry, ABACUS is going to find all this hidden traffic and everyone is going to get a 2-3 level upgrade.

 

[SunnyATC]

The one facility type that shouldn't even be remotely complaining about TCI are updowns. A 9 updown is usually slower in the tower than a 9 tower only and slower on radar than a 9 tracon.

So the busiest airports have 5 parallels? Take the amount of traffic and divide by number of runways? Centers take the total ops, divide by square miles, divide again by number of sectors? TCI does a poor job of actually determining complexity. High levels facilities are busy. Some positions in low level facilities suck as well. Dodging VFR traffic around a busy Class C doesn’t sound fun either. We are all underpaid relative to our professional peers.

 

[BrocolliRob]

My biggest gripe with the TCI is that it thinks me working a delta CRJ is somehow harder than working the million student pilots that fly non stop and have no idea what’s going on. Air liners are the easiest thing I do.

 

[KP-ATC]

My biggest gripe with the TCI is that it thinks me working a delta CRJ is somehow harder than working the million student pilots that fly non stop and have no idea what’s going on. Air liners are the easiest thing I do.

A Delta CRJ? So... Comair?

 

[BDUB]

My biggest gripe with the TCI is that it thinks me working a delta CRJ is somehow harder than working the million student pilots that fly non stop and have no idea what’s going on. Air liners are the easiest thing I do.

D towers get absolutely shafted in my opinion. 1 local controller working at a time pushing 100hr ops should get paid more than they currently do

 

[Soul_Controller]

My biggest gripe with the TCI is that it thinks me working a delta CRJ is somehow harder than working the million student pilots that fly non stop and have no idea what’s going on. Air liners are the easiest thing I do.

An IFR itinerant requires more work from the facility (clearance and taxi) than a guy on the option, even though the latter is two operations compared to one. A busy VFR tower sucks to work, but you can't ignore that some TCI things are proxies for complexity.

 

[EightTwoSierra]

D towers get absolutely shafted in my opinion. 1 local controller working at a time pushing 100hr ops should get paid more than they currently do

Got that right. We are so short staffed that we had 4 CPCs for the entire day last Wednesday and ran 1286 ops in our D airspace. It’s insane how much work it is.

 

[Homsar]

An IFR itinerant requires more work from the facility (clearance and taxi) than a guy on the option, even though the latter is two operations compared to one. A busy VFR tower sucks to work, but you can't ignore that some TCI things are proxies for complexity.

One plane, alone, in the pattern, sure.

When I’m having to space and sequence 8 in the pattern, that’s a whole lot more work than reading 8 IFR clearances and taxing them. I think the complexity factor should be updated to account for that.

 

[BrocolliRob]

An IFR itinerant requires more work from the facility (clearance and taxi) than a guy on the option, even though the latter is two operations compared to one. A busy VFR tower sucks to work, but you can't ignore that some TCI things are proxies for complexity.

Have you worked at low level tower? Just reading a clearance really doesn’t make more work. I have to taxi both aircrafts, give codes and frequencies to both aircraft, I already know the intentions of the IFR aircraft. With the VFR guy, I gotta play twenty questions.

It’s really not even close which one is more work. I get the sentiment that IFR is somehow more important but in all my experience, way easier to actually work.

A Delta CRJ? So... Comair?

I guess they are embraers now. TYFYS.

 

[Bandit117]

A Delta CRJ? So... Comair?

Don’t be pedantic, there are plenty of delta tail crjs out there even if it’s not delta flown

 

[SquawkHijack]

An IFR itinerant requires more work from the facility (clearance and taxi) than a guy on the option, even though the latter is two operations compared to one. A busy VFR tower sucks to work, but you can't ignore that some TCI things are proxies for complexity.

Yes and no, IFR traffic isn’t based as much on complexity as it is responsibility per se or the enplaned passenger aspect of it.

I do agree that VFR tower work is more complex on several fronts. Tower rules are more “shoot from the hip” and rules aren’t as defined on what’s acceptable and what’s not. There’s also a myriad mix of pilot experience and performance types. Even if just talking category 1 aircraft in a closed traffic pattern, that could mean a student solo in a skyhawk and an experienced one flying a lancair which are wildly different performing cat 1 aircraft. Not to mention the hundreds of different aircraft types, there are still a lot of jet types but let’s face it, the amount of jet types you have to know at ORD tower is way less than say all the types at APA or DVT.

 

[TimShady]

let’s face it, the amount of jet types you have to know at ORD tower is way less than say all the types at APA or DVT.

Let’s see, we got Heavy, 75, 73, Bus, E170, CRJ, Biz Jet. I think that’s about it. Easy money if you ask me. Put your paperwork in!

 

[SquawkHijack]

Let’s see, we got Heavy, 75, 73, Bus, E170, CRJ, Biz Jet. I think that’s about it. Easy money if you ask me. Put your paperwork in!

Because, no offense, I’m not the least bit interested in the Chicago area lol.