Landing Clearance and runway occupancy

[Trance]

Hi there!
I’m after some guidance on FAA regs with regard to landing clearances and runway occupancy.

Where I operate mostly around Europe land it is extremely uncommon to hear a clearance to land issued with a runway occupied with either another landing, departing or taxiing aircraft, or even a ground vehicle.

It can be unnerving to be issued a clearance to cross a runway and then immediately hear a clearance to land on that same runway.

Any thoughts?

 

[Romeo-Zulu]

"Anticipating seperation" is a phrase and concept that you will find throughout our 7110.65 regulations. The concept allows for many of these situations you are speaking of and is focused on during training. The idea, I believe, is for controllers to be able to operate efficiently and also ensure the pilots to continue their approach. There are other procedures that are per facility as well such as memory aids and equipment, etc. Hope that helps.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

7110.65 Chapter 3-9-6 and 3-10-3 for a couple of those scenarios. I especially use 3-10-3 on a daily basis and bring unnerved pilots up to speed with my requirements often when they express concern with a preceding landing aircraft still on the runway when they’re on final.

“Between sunrise and sunset, if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks and the other aircraft has landed, it need not be clear of the runway if the following minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:

- When a Category I aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II− 3,000 feet.
- When a Category II aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II− 4,500 feet.”

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

USA! USA! USA!

 

[32andBelow]

We also have non towered airports with lots of commercial ops with no tower at all ??

 

[slater]

It's "cleared to land" not "clear to land". The controller is giving a landing clearance/approval based on anticipated separation. Meaning the conditions required will exist when the aircraft reaches the runway threshold. That's why you notify an arrival of any aircraft between him and the runway or departing prior within reason. The pilot has the final decision has always been my understanding.

 

[TimShady]

Is it common in Europe to not get your landing clearance until you’re almost at the runway threshold? Just seems weird to me. Maybe they don’t run them that tight over there.

But yes, as stated, we can anticipate that the runway will be clear by the time the aircraft reaches the threshold and therefore aren’t required to withhold the landing clearance until it is actually clear. Where I work we routinely clear aircraft to land that are number 5 or 6 in the sequence.

 

[Termine]

To point you to the specific rule we follow: it's the 7110.65 paragraph 3-10-6. "Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing sequence need not be withheld if you observe the positions of the aircraft and determine that prescribed runway separation will exist when the aircraft crosses the landing threshold." There is a similar rule for departing aircraft.

In addition, RomeoTangoRT has another point: "prescribed runway separation" does not always mean "preceding aircraft is clear of the runway."

It's just a difference in how we look at safety and separation, and you'll find those differences all over the place. For example in the UK it is allowed for ATC to give a conditional LUAW instruction: "Behind the arriving Airbus line up, behind." That is not allowed in the USA.

Is it common in Europe to not get your landing clearance until you’re almost at the runway threshold?

To my understanding, yes.

 

[WavesAndClouds]

Is it common in Europe to not get your landing clearance until you’re almost at the runway threshold? Just seems weird to me. Maybe they don’t run them that tight over there.

But yes, as stated, we can anticipate that the runway will be clear by the time the aircraft reaches the threshold and therefore aren’t required to withhold the landing clearance until it is actually clear. Where I work we routinely clear aircraft to land that are number 5 or 6 in the sequence.

I clear planes 30 miles out idc. Why withhold the clearance? We don't have lineup and wait. So just clear em all right away. The pilots always forget if they are cleared though and ask for verification on short final..... only downside.

 

[slater]

Short final: Hey tower verify were clear to land?

Me: sh*ts my pants, thinking there is something on the runway forgot I cleared him on the downwind. ???