Loss of Separation during training

[RomeoH]

What happens when you have a couple of R-sides but are not fully certified and have a loss of separation?

Is it the same significance as when you are a CPC and have a deal? Do you just get a PROC in your file or actually face a consequence?

If you filed an ATSAP to acknowledge that you had a deal, does it change anything?

I’m curious to know what the culture or mindset is with having loss of sep.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Have to start calling you steak sauce!

 

[Maintainvfr]

Obviously it can set your training back a lot based on the circumstances and if it changes your trainers perception of your ability. As for the actual "consequences," are you talking about a position you're certified on or training on?

If certified, it's the exact same as a CPC. File an atsap, someone might mention it to you or ask questions but probably not. If you're training on it, it's considered the trainers deal and not yours. Again, it obviously impacts your training progress though

 

[Phillyman2633]

Did it happen while you were training on that position or were you working by yourself at the time? If you were working by yourself, best to file an ATSAP and move on. I had a pretty shitty deal that was my fault while I was working a position I had just certified on but was still training and felt like shit for a couple days but you file an ATSAP and move on. Nothing ever happened in my case, ERC recommended no action.

 

[RomeoH]

Did it happen while you were training on that position or were you working by yourself at the time? If you were working by yourself, best to file an ATSAP and move on. I had a pretty shitty deal that was my fault while I was working a position I had just certified on but was still training and felt like shit for a couple days but you file an ATSAP and move on. Nothing ever happened in my case, ERC recommended no action.

It happened while I was working on my own. One guy that I gave a descent clearance to be level in 3 min didn’t do it. I had 600 ft and 3 mile separation. I didn’t file an ATSAP and just had a meeting with my sup talking about the whole situation and what I could’ve done to ensure separation. I got a PROC documenting what happened. Is this the end of this process? If I filed an atsap, would I not have gone through this meeting and had a permanent record?

 

[Robert_Boucher]

It happened while I was working on my own. One guy that I gave a descent clearance to be level in 3 min didn’t do it. I had 600 ft and 3 mile separation. I didn’t file an ATSAP and just had a meeting with my sup talking about the whole situation and what I could’ve done to ensure separation. I got a PROC documenting what happened. Is this the end of this process? If I filed an atsap, would I not have gone through this meeting and had a permanent record?

ATSAPs don't protect you from a PROC. And after you get the "talking to" from your sup you should be done with it. Like others have said just move on and don't think about it. But for the future as soon as you get off position file an ATSAP.

 

[PushingTin]

nothing happens. you ATSAP it and move on, just like any other deal. If anything happens its most likely to be the FLM who might have a partial controller working Radar without a properly experienced D side, etc. They may get a scolding because its a bad look, but whatever that's what they get paid the big bucks for. As long as you dont have multiple deals and aren't hated in your area no one will care and literally nothing happens. I mean you are gonna take a bunch of shit but what else is new that happens anyway until youre done and maybe even still then lol. I hope you are properly emabarassed by it though enough to double down and not let it happen again. I hate when ppl (probably defense mechanism) just laugh and act flippant because of ATSAP!

IMO, PROCs really dont mean shit since raises arent based on performance reports and no one ever gets "in trouble" other than for drugs/alcohol. i guess in theory a whole string of negative RPOCs could equal some sort of negative trend paper trail that gets you a reprimand! gasp

 

[RomeoH]

ATSAPs don't protect you from a PROC. And after you get the "talking to" from your sup you should be done with it. Like others have said just move on and don't think about it. But for the future as soon as you get off position file an ATSAP.

I get the point of ATSAP but I’m confused as to how it aids you when you have a deal. If you have a deal, it’s bc of your operational error. Why does it look better if you file it? Bc you willingly admitted that you had a deal?

Btw does anyone have insight into how deals are discovered? Does QC inspect everything conflict alert and examine it for further review? If you file an atsap, does that then override this process?

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

At my facility we just got briefed (and I saw a similar email from my previous facility) that nationwide the new thing to focus on is PROCs and we should anticipate receiving more of these in the near future

I get the point of ATSAP but I’m confused as to how it aids you when you have a deal. If you have a deal, it’s bc of your operational error. Why does it look better if you file it? Bc you willingly admitted that you had a deal?

Btw does anyone have insight into how deals are discovered? Does QC inspect everything conflict alert and examine it for further review? If you file an atsap, does that then override this process?

Snitch and/or tarp go over in QC every time there is a loss of separation. It is documented and recorded. QC then goes in to look at and listen to it. They determine how much separation was lost, if visual or tower applied separation existed, etc. Generally you'll only hear about a deal from your supervisor (OS) if it is a repeat event or less than 66% of standard separation

 

[PushingTin]

At my facility we just got briefed (and I saw a similar email from my previous facility) that nationwide the new thing to focus on is PROCs and we should anticipate receiving more of these in the near future

positive PROCs?

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

positive PROCs?

Believe it or not they do exist

 

[GMX]

I've seen positive PROCs. Done in conjunction with negatives ones I feel like they were done in an attempt to deflect from spurious claims: "I did two positives for each negative; I'm not singling anybody out!"