N90 (Newark Area) to PHL FOIA's

[Termine]

I have never been able to find it. Have you? I only find references to it, never the actual agreement

I don't know about an MOU but from the Slate Book Appendix A... copy-paste from a comment I've made before...

Metropolitan Tower Complex – Two (2) or more airport traffic control terminals that provide traffic advisories, spacing, sequencing, and separation services to VFR and IFR aircraft operating in Class B airspace within the vicinity of the airport using a combination of radar and direct observations. These airport traffic control terminals must serve separate Large Hub Airports located in a major metropolitan area and independently be within one (1) facility pay level of each other. Additionally, each airport must be located within fifteen (15) nautical miles (center of airport to center of airport), and have traffic flows that have to be closely coordinated between facilities such that the operational configuration of one (1) airport affects the operational configuration of the other(s).

Traffic Count Index (TCI) – A combined measure of the complexity of the air traffic and the sustained traffic index at each facility. It is the measure used to set facility pay levels. For a Metropolitan Tower Complex, the Traffic Count Index for each airport traffic control terminal facility is calculated independently, and the pay level of the Complex is set based on the highest independently calculated TCI.

JFK is is nine miles from LGA, and LGA is fourteen miles from EWR. However JFK is eighteen miles from EWR. Additionally I know that LGA/JFK runway selection are heavily dependent on each other but I don't know if EWR is affected as much. I would assume yes, though.

So provided JFK and LGA are independently calculated to be within one FPL of each other, each facility's FPL is set to the higher one. Most likely this is true for EWR and LGA as well. For example, this could be true:

• EWR TCI is 10.
• LGA TCI is 11.
• JFK TCI is 10.
• Because EWR is a "metro tower complex" with LGA, and because EWR is within one level of LGA, EWR is set to an 11.
• Because JFK is a "metro tower complex" with LGA, and because JFK is within one level of LGA, JFK is set to an 11.

Now in the (made-up example) case where EWR is 11, LGA is 10, and JFK is 9, it shouldn't be true that JFK would commutatively be set to match EWR's 11, because EWR and JFK are too far apart to be considered part of the same metro tower complex. Instead JFK should be set to match LGA's independently calculated 10, while LGA would be set to 11 to match EWR. But I would not at all be surprised to hear that they just lump all three together and call it a day.

It does kind of make you wonder why they didn't make the distance requirement 20NM instead of 15NM, though, right? I mean, they had surveying tools and distance calculators back when they negotiated the complexity formula.

 

[abc1234]

I don't know about an MOU but from the Slate Book Appendix A... copy-paste from a comment I've made before...



JFK is is nine miles from LGA, and LGA is fourteen miles from EWR. However JFK is eighteen miles from EWR. Additionally I know that LGA/JFK runway selection are heavily dependent on each other but I don't know if EWR is affected as much. I would assume yes, though.

So provided JFK and LGA are independently calculated to be within one FPL of each other, each facility's FPL is set to the higher one. Most likely this is true for EWR and LGA as well. For example, this could be true:

• EWR TCI is 10.
• LGA TCI is 11.
• JFK TCI is 10.
• Because EWR is a "metro tower complex" with LGA, and because EWR is within one level of LGA, EWR is set to an 11.
• Because JFK is a "metro tower complex" with LGA, and because JFK is within one level of LGA, JFK is set to an 11.

Now in the (made-up example) case where EWR is 11, LGA is 10, and JFK is 9, it shouldn't be true that JFK would commutatively be set to match EWR's 11, because EWR and JFK are too far apart to be considered part of the same metro tower complex. Instead JFK should be set to match LGA's independently calculated 10, while LGA would be set to 11 to match EWR. But I would not at all be surprised to hear that they just lump all three together and call it a day.

It does kind of make you wonder why they didn't make the distance requirement 20NM instead of 15NM, though, right? I mean, they had surveying tools and distance calculators back when they negotiated the complexity formula.

What about TEB though? Are they getting hosed in all of this?

They clearly have a major impact on LGA and EWR operations. It seems to me they fit the criteria. They're a level 9 and if EWR is independently a 10, shouldn't TEB be paid at level 10?

 

[fivebyfive]

What about TEB though? Are they getting hosed in all of this?

They clearly have a major impact on LGA and EWR operations. It seems to me they fit the criteria. They're a level 9 and if EWR is independently a 10, shouldn't TEB be paid at level 10?

TEB gets 2 levels of traffic count due to EWR overflights. They're fine.

 

[Move78]

I have never been able to find it. Have you? I only find references to it, never the actual agreement

It’s defined in Appendix A. The TLDR is New York towers will all hold the same FPL as long they do 300,000 ops and stay within 1 level of each other individually.

What about TEB though? Are they getting hosed in all of this?

They clearly have a major impact on LGA and EWR operations. It seems to me they fit the criteria. They're a level 9 and if EWR is independently a 10, shouldn't TEB be paid at level 10?

I think TEB is too far from JFK to qualify. They wrote it specifically for EWR LGA JFK. Also TEB got a double upgrade because of scam over flights they don’t work. They’re very much not getting hosed.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

What about TEB though? Are they getting hosed in all of this?

They clearly have a major impact on LGA and EWR operations. It seems to me they fit the criteria. They're a level 9 and if EWR is independently a 10, shouldn't TEB be paid at level 10?

TEB scammed a double upgrade from 7 to 9 a few years back with the overflight traffic count trick someone else described. Don’t worry, ABACUS is smart enough to snuff out scams like that, they would be downgraded again, but lucky that project is getting defunded lol.

 

[CaptainObvious]

It’s defined in Appendix A. The TLDR is New York towers will all hold the same FPL as long they do 300,000 ops and stay within 1 level of each other individually.


I think TEB is too far from JFK to qualify. They wrote it specifically for EWR LGA JFK. Also TEB got a double upgrade because of scam over flights they don’t work. They’re very much not getting hosed.

But we can’t up level our centers actually working the traffic

 

[Termine]

It seems to me they fit the criteria.

Even if you very generously interpret the bit about "providing service to aircraft operating in Class B airspace" there's the requirement for the facility to serve a Large Hub Airport. TEB is a Reliever Airport.

 

[32andBelow]

Even if you very generously interpret the bit about "providing service to aircraft operating in Class B airspace" there's the requirement for the facility to serve a Large Hub Airport. TEB is a Reliever Airport.

Yah but it’s a large hub for rich people. Did you think of that.

 

[KP-ATC]

Even if you very generously interpret the bit about "providing service to aircraft operating in Class B airspace" there's the requirement for the facility to serve a Large Hub Airport. TEB is a Reliever Airport.

I've been given class B clearances by JFK, LGA and EWR but never by TEB.

 

[DankVectorz]

Also TEB got a double upgrade because of scam over flights they don’t work.

Do you consider transitions that fly through a delta to be scam traffic count? The EWR 22 final and stadium visual 29 descends through TEB delta

What about TEB though? Are they getting hosed in all of this?

They clearly have a major impact on LGA and EWR operations. It seems to me they fit the criteria. They're a level 9 and if EWR is independently a 10, shouldn't TEB be paid at level 10?

TEB doesn’t work class B traffic