NCEPT debate thread

[Move78]

No, man. I am the person who needed to accept that facility. Now that I've done my time here, don't I get to ever go home?

All these grievances are legit. But this process is improving and that kid you trained just so he can cut in front of you isn't going to be a guaranteed selection anymore. But there absolutely should be a hold on ERR eligibility after certification. And a way for facilities to literally refuse somebody if they don't want someone with 0 experience. Instead of just ranking them low

 

[Dolan]

All these grievances are legit. But this process is improving and that kid you trained just so he can cut in front of you isn't going to be a guaranteed selection anymore. But there absolutely should be a hold on ERR eligibility after certification. And a way for facilities to literally refuse somebody if they don't want someone with 0 experience. Instead of just ranking them low

I don't understand why you think that guaranteeing people who pick higher priority facilities selection over those who pick lower priorities is ever going to go away. It would go against everything NCEPT has done and said so far. Did I miss a memo?

 

[Move78]

It'll be more crucial than ever to hide your ERR intentions because the way to cut in line going forward is going to be to select the lowest priority facility you're willing to go that's still in front of your coworker's choice. As a bookend. The priority list that's released every month should be much more useful in forecasting the one the matters now too. Movement both up and down should be subtle month to month now.

 

[Move78]

I don't understand why you think that guaranteeing people who pick higher priority facilities selection over those who pick lower priorities is ever going to go away. It would go against everything NCEPT has done and said so far. Did I miss a memo?

I'm saying the high facilities that are picking more than 7-10 people is going to slow down. This is except for A80 LAX etc. There are exceptions. But as most places settle around the national avg their number of selections will continue to lower. And your buddy at work will get passed over for other people where as up until this point the number of people eligible to leave was so restricted that most were basically guaranteed to picked many places because the managers ranking list was small and uncompetitive.

 

[Dolan]

I'm saying the high facilities that are picking more than 7-10 people is going to slow down. This is except for A80 LAX etc. There are exceptions. But as most places settle around the national avg their number of selections will continue to lower. And your buddy at work will get passed over for other people where as up until this point the number of people eligible to leave was so restricted that most were basically guaranteed to picked many places because the managers ranking list was small and uncompetitive.

I understand that, but anyone who would agree to that system or, rather, not take action to guarantee their career movement is out of their mind IMO. You can't just expect people to wait around and agree to a dice roll 4 times a year to see who gets to leave. You have to give people a period of time to agree to stay somewhere at which point they can leave and you have to let the people who have been waiting the longest leave first. This is the fundamental flaw in NCEPT.

I wish some of you guys could spend a year at my old tower. I guarantee you'd change your view of how this thing has to work by the end of it.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Stop feeling butt hurt and get over it. Coming here and pointing out that this process is improving is a fact, not an opinion.

Thanks for proving my point. I bet you use terms like "libtard" too for anyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm glad you can engage in a rational discussion about the topic

 

[liter a cola]

I understand that, but anyone who would agree to that system or, rather, not take action to guarantee their career movement is out of their mind IMO. You can't just expect people to wait around and agree to a dice roll 4 times a year to see who gets to leave. You have to give people a period of time to agree to stay somewhere at which point they can leave and you have to let the people who have been waiting the longest leave first. This is the fundamental flaw in NCEPT.

I wish some of you guys could spend a year at my old tower. I guarantee you'd change your view of how this thing has to work by the end of it.

I want to know where you've worked. I've heard stories from some jaded people stuck at some pretty shitty locations. I just like adding them to my list of places not to fam to.

 

[UNABLE STBY]

Thanks for proving my point. I bet you use terms like "libtard" too for anyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm glad you can engage in a rational discussion about the topic

I'm 100% a libtard, and it's not a discussion topic. These are like real-actual-facts you can swallow, or just sit in a foxhole whining about how you were promised by NATCA that you'd end up at your dream facility.

NCEPT is getting better and helping controllers, fixes are being made, and more people are coming into the FAA.

 

[Turn Right or Die]

No, man. I am the person who needed to accept that facility. Now that I've done my time here, don't I get to ever go home?

I don't understand what's bad about volunteering to work at a high priority facility? You are saying that no facilities near your home are anywhere near the top? I find that hard to believe.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I'm 100% a libtard, and it's not a discussion topic. These are like real-actual-facts you can swallow, or just sit in a foxhole whining about how you were promised by NATCA that you'd end up at your dream facility.

NCEPT is getting better and helping controllers, fixes are being made, and more people are coming into the FAA.

That's not what I was talking about. You think it's working, that's fine. From where I'm at in my facility as well as others it's not. "Collective" does not mean ignore some of your members concerns, especially since I pay my dues as well as you

 

[Stinger]

I don't understand what's bad about volunteering to work at a high priority facility? You are saying that no facilities near your home are anywhere near the top? I find that hard to believe.

For me, 3 hours from home is about #170 on the priority list.
5 hours is about #210
2 hours is about #230
Those are the closest to me....and they're a significant downgrade which I'd be comfortable taking.
Any level 9+ is more then 10 hours from home.

So that's very believable. Not everyone comes from major population centers where there's mid-to-high level facilities a couple hours in every direction.

 

[breakaway2000]

I don't understand what's bad about volunteering to work at a high priority facility? You are saying that no facilities near your home are anywhere near the top? I find that hard to believe.

Do you think his home facility is near the top and he's just voluntarily not putting in for it? Each facility is different, some haven't been eligible past the first handful of facilities. Other remain eligible the entire NCEPT. Some have a couple people with ERR's, others only have a couple people that don't have ERR's out.

Empathy. It helps.

The NCEPT has given opportunities to people for certain facilities that they would have never, ever been considered for before. It's a blessing for those that were lucky enough to have the stars align at the right time.
The NCEPT has also has crippled some hard to staff lower level and mid level facilities (there are a lot of facilities that haven't been eligible yet).
The NCEPT has made it incredibly difficult for married couples.
If you were selected on the NCEPT, you can still be incredibly grateful for the opportunity and still feel for the people who have been effected.

The majority of people that I see singing the NCEPT's praises don't have ERR's out. They haven't had a co-worker go FLM and block others, haven't had co-workers get illegitimate hardships approved, haven't had to hold out hope for a last second certification, haven't counted down the days to the final facility priority list shuffle that possibly determines who gets that one spot out of your facility, haven't counted down the days to the panel only to see it delayed, or haven't felt the heartache of a co-worker turning down an ERR and blocking you.

A lot of positive things have changed about the NCEPT since it's inception. I sincerely hope it continues for those that are effected.

 

[autismo]

I want to know where you've worked. I've heard stories from some jaded people stuck at some pretty shitty locations. I just like adding them to my list of places not to fam to.

I feel like I was in an almost identical situation to him and certainly as jaded if not more so before I quit. Worked at the tower with the most expensive cost of living in the NAS. Zero ERR's approved out since NCEPT, zero ERR's in. Co-worker got a FLM deviation approved, hardships abused, etc, etc

 

[liter a cola]

I feel like I was in an almost identical situation to him. Worked at the tower with the most expensive cost of living in the NAS. Zero ERR's approved out since NCEPT, zero ERR's in. Co-worker blocked by getting a deviation approved, etc, etc

I can't really be sympathetic... First facility for me was Aspen, living in a single wide trailer hanging off the side of a mountain with my wife and kids in Phoenix because that is where she worked... I drove the PHX to ASE drive 3 weekends a month...

When my second son was born I was told at the academy that if I went home I would be shit canned and there was a line of others waiting to get in... So I missed my second son's birth. Shit even the Army sent me home from Iraq to see my first son be born...

I'm just saying for the most part I kept my head down, kissed ass when I needed too, met the people I needed to meet, did my time and moved on. I didn't bitch 24/7. I played the shitty game that everyone else played.

The military has a saying and so far I find it applies to the faa... There is only two places you like the place you're leaving and the place you're going. Kinda like the three busiest facilities in the faa are the last you were at, the one you're at now or the one you're going to.

The grass isn't always greener. Most of you will err and probably want to leave that facility too.

Now time for some truth... People keep bashing the union because they think natca is fucking them via the ncept program. Truth is you're doing it to yourselves (me included). If everyone would stop dropping err's and bucked the system the faa would have to bid jobs. Which means move money, being graded on a point system that includes time in service and experience and the holy grail that a lot of you ask for, being cpc for some amount of time to even be qualified to bid.

Guess I'll wait to be flamed now.

 

[Move78]

I can't really be sympathetic... First facility for me was Aspen, living in a single wide trailer hanging off the side of a mountain with my wife and kids in Phoenix because that is where she worked... I drove the PHX to ASE drive 3 weekends a month...

When my second son was born I was told at the academy that if I went home I would be shit canned and there was a line of others waiting to get in... So I missed my second son's birth. Shit even the Army sent me home from Iraq to see my first son be born...

I'm just saying for the most part I kept my head down, kissed ass when I needed too, met the people I needed to meet, did my time and moved on. I didn't bitch 24/7. I played the shitty game that everyone else played.

The military has a saying and so far I find it applies to the faa... There is only two places you like the place you're leaving and the place you're going. Kinda like the three busiest facilities in the faa are the last you were at, the one you're at now or the one you're going to.

The grass isn't always greener. Most of you will err and probably want to leave that facility too.

Now time for some truth... People keep bashing the union because they think natca is fucking them via the ncept program. Truth is you're doing it to yourselves (me included). If everyone would stop dropping err's and bucked the system the faa would have to bid jobs. Which mean move money, being graded on a point system that includes time in service and experience and the holy grail that a lot of you ask for, being cpc for some amount of time to even be qualified to bid.

Guess I'll wait to be flamed now.

Epic

 

[breakaway2000]

I can't really be sympathetic... First facility for me was Aspen, living in a single wide trailer hanging off the side of a mountain with my wife and kids in Phoenix because that is where she worked... I drove the PHX to ASE drive 3 weekends a month...

When my second son was born I was told at the academy that if I went home I would be shit canned and there was a line of others waiting to get in... So I missed my second son's birth. Shit even the Army sent me home from Iraq to see my first son be born...

I'm just saying for the most part I kept my head down, kissed ass when I needed too, met the people I needed to meet, did my time and moved on. I didn't bitch 24/7. I played the shitty game that everyone else played.

The military has a saying and so far I find it applies to the faa... There is only two places you like the place you're leaving and the place you're going. Kinda like the three busiest facilities in the faa are the last you were at, the one you're at now or the one you're going to.

The grass isn't always greener. Most of you will err and probably want to leave that facility too.

Now time for some truth... People keep bashing the union because they think natca is fucking them via the ncept program. Truth is you're doing it to yourselves (me included). If everyone would stop dropping err's and bucked the system the faa would have to bid jobs. Which mean move money, being graded on a point system that includes time in service and experience and the holy grail that a lot of you ask for, being cpc for some amount of time to even be qualified to bid.

Guess I'll wait to be flamed now.

ASE has been eligible to release 1 person 1 time since the inception of the NCEPT and that person was picked up for ZDV on the June Panel. Can I safely assume you made it to Phoenix prior to the NCEPT?

Also prior the the NCEPT...
-Most bids didn't have move money
- Point system was still largely irrelevant. Selection was still based on how ATM's ranked their list.
- CPC time was not a qualification for bids.

 

[Move78]

Because I shouldn't have to give up hopes of getting to a facility I've been trying to get to for 10 years just to jump ahead of someone who's been CPC for a week that I trained to go to a facility I don't want to be at? Or I guess he just deserves being able to move before me? NATCA must absolutely love you. I wonder what it would take for you to admit that you're getting fucked by your union

I'd be interested to hear why your so upset with this new system when the old system apparently made it impossible for you to ever go home. If you've been trying to go home for 10 years then you endured 8.5 years of constant failure in that regard. And under the old system your ATM had the power to unofficially prevent you from leaving by refusing to compromise with any recieving ATM on a release date they wanted. Driving them to other candidates they didn't have to wait years to receive. Or the facility you desired refused to ever choose you. This new process eliminated both of those problems.
@Dolan

 

[liter a cola]

Aspen is 60% as expensive as where I left says google. Single wide trailers there are over a quarter million.

I'd have been happy to play the game and wait my turn to leave. After all, that was my intent agreeing to go there. However, NCEPT totally changed the game. There's no such thing as "doing your time" anymore. I can tell you that if I had gotten locked into that tower for the majority of my career it would have been one of the biggest regrets of my life.

Instead I walked out the door, got picked up via the CPC reinstatement thing, and now work at a facility that doesn't suck ass. Just bought a house out here. Quitting that first tower was the smartest career choice I've ever made. I'll never pay a cent in union dues again and my quality of life is worlds apart from what it used to be.

See you did what you had to do and it worked, why be jaded? Additionally I'm very pro union even though I don't agree with everything they do. I do believe it's still us vs them and as far as I'm concerned you're one of them. You reap off the work and dues of other dues paying members.

Honesty I hope you never find yourself in trouble with the faa because if I was your rep I would rep you as I am contractually obligated but I would not go out of my way or put my neck on the line to save your job.

Breakaway2000, I've never worked at phx, couldn't work at phx even if I wanted to and alarms go off if I get within 5 miles of the facility. The fact that I still work in the same district as them boggles my mind.

 

[autismo]

See you did what you had to do and it worked, why be jaded?

Because people I worked with, my NATCA "brothers and sisters" as you call them, needed to get out even more than I did. They've been waiting longer, too. However, they aren't able to just walk out the door like I did. There's no guarantee you get back in. It's just brutal to see the union treat its members like that.

 

[breakaway2000]

Breakaway2000, I've never worked at phx, couldn't work at phx even if I wanted to and alarms go off if I get within 5 miles of the facility. The fact that I still work in the same district as them boggles my mind.

Roger that, so you got out of ASE before the NCEPT because you had the ability to 'outwork' your co-workers by networking, building relationships, etc?