NCEPT debate thread

[CaptainObvious]

If this isn't proof that NCEPT is a broken system then idk what is.

What part? Them keeping it quiet? Or a bunch of people getting wind of it and rushing the door, beating out or at least competing with people that actually want to go to these facilities and had their paperwork in previously?

 

[corn4ahead]

What part? Them keeping it quiet? Or a bunch of people getting wind of it and rushing the door, beating out or at least competing with people that actually want to go to these facilities and had their paperwork in previously?

Keeping it "quiet," and it's further proof that people are feeling stuck so they see a way out and say "screw it." I mean we are talking 100s of ERRs. My guess is that there will be multiple level 8-12s get selected here. Which is actually great but it goes to show that people want to advance their careers which isn't currently possible for most small facilities.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I'm not understanding the issue... If they get picked up and fail, they go right back to where they came from so there isn't the advantage of getting selected and then playing the NEST lotto. If someone at say (S46,S56,SCT,I90,M98, whatever other large tracon), wants to come here but never put in their paperwork because their facility wasn't eligible to release anyone with this new crap system, but now they can get out, why shouldn't that person trump the level 6 controller who has had their paperwork in for the last two years? That higher certified radar controller is a hell of a lot more qualified and statistically likely to succeed here.

That's great. They have experience and may be more likely to succeed, but how long can we continue to advocate shitting on lower level facilities. Those slots that the high level TRACON guys vacate won't go to guys progressing their careers, they'll go to fucking new hires.

I get really sick of the perception that just because you were hired on at a certain level facility you're automatically garbage and not worthy.

I'm sorry but I was stoked to get my foot in the door and go to a 7 and get a radar ticket because "that's the key to opening all the doors". I bid for several 12s, as well as an 8, a 9 and 2 10s. I don't expect the 12s, but think it would be nice to move up to one of the middle range facilities I put in for

 

[CaptainObvious]

I went back and read the MOU and to me it looks like it doesn't apply to the National Release Policy when it comes to release dates only. Which section do you think means it doesn't apply completely? I sure hope you're correct!

The NRP is what establishes that if you're not cat I or II you can't get a release until you reach that level. If the NRP doesn't apply, then there should be nothing that prevents releases from any facility

 

[Dolan]

I'm not understanding the issue... If they get picked up and fail, they go right back to where they came from so there isn't the advantage of getting selected and then playing the NEST lotto. If someone at say (S46,S56,SCT,I90,M98, whatever other large tracon), wants to come here but never put in their paperwork because their facility wasn't eligible to release anyone with this new crap system, but now they can get out, why shouldn't that person trump the level 6 controller who has had their paperwork in for the last two years? That higher certified radar controller is a hell of a lot more qualified and statistically likely to succeed here.

Oh, oh! I know! (at least why it's worth it for low level CPCs)

Because it's worth it to go to A80, get CPC and the level 12 pay that goes with it, and immediately hardship to your choice of facility since you're no longer handcuffed by the 3 facility level difference. Welcome to NCEPT ladies and gents! Getting the experience of even attempting to certify at a high level TRACON is great for your resume and beats the hell out of being stuck in some boring tower!

 

[CaptainObvious]

Oh, oh! I know! (at least why it's worth it for low level CPCs)

Because it's worth it to go to A80, get CPC and the level 12 pay that goes with it, and immediately hardship to your choice of facility since you're no longer handcuffed by the 3 facility level difference. Welcome to NCEPT ladies and gents!

Disregards the difficulty in the hardship process. Aside from a few examples, it's way more difficult than that

 

[CaptainObvious]

The NRP is what establishes that if you're not cat I or II you can't get a release until you reach that level. If the NRP doesn't apply, then there should be nothing that prevents releases from any facility

To further expand, it should be similar to this passage from the NRP.

The C90/N90 Return Rights and Priority Release MOU dated March 15, 2016, Article 124 Priority Placement, transfers under Article 99 of the 2016 CBA are not subject to the provisions of the National Release Policy

 

[Dolan]

Disregards the difficulty in the hardship process. Aside from a few examples, it's way more difficult than that

I totally disagree. All you need is a really well written note from a doctor

 

[CaptainObvious]

I totally disagree. All you need is a really well written note from a doctor

And I totally disagree from personal experience

 

[Mike Kilo]

[Removed by user]

 

[CaptainObvious]

I bet your tune would change after you make that career progression to an 8 or 9. Certify and work a couple of years, and try bidding to level 11 and 12s while watching them pick up from 5/6/7s. People who have half your time and experience.

You'll be sitting at your level 9 thinking "Kudos to DEN for picking up from PAE, SDL (6's), and SMO (5) over me even though I'm a cat 1 and ready to move now, that's really big of them. " or "Good job IAH and DFW for recognizing worth in those level 6 and 7s you've been selectin from, it really warms the heart"

Yah right. If big facilities pulled from the middle you'd have more room to move up, but they hire based on who you know and not merit unfortunately.

Bet that it wouldn't. Apparently you missed my last paragraph where I said that moving to a mid level would be great and don't expect that it should work to jump from 7 to a 12. The only 12 I think has no room to deny anyone from any level is N90

 

[Mike Kilo]

I agree about N90, but from my point of view and looking at NCEPT since it started the lower facilities have been getting the breaks while the mid levels are stuck due to staffing or getting passed over for low level applicants. You are complaining about being at a low level and not being considered and I feel that is not at all the case. Maybe a few facilities have a 8 or above experience requirement, but they are very few and there is a reason for it.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I agree about N90, but from my point of view and looking at NCEPT since it started the lower facilities have been getting the breaks while the mid levels are stuck due to staffing or getting passed over for low level applicants. You are complaining about being at a low level and not being considered and I feel that is not at all the case. Maybe a few facilities have a 8 or above experience requirement, but they are very few and there is a reason for it.

Some low level facilities have been considered. Going on two years and we haven't released a single person.

 

[Move78]

Some low level facilities have been considered. Going on two years and we haven't released a single person.

And by Some you mean Too Many

 

[CaptainObvious]

And by Some you mean Too Many

Why should they not have the ability to move? especially to mid levels via a level cap? It gets really old the mindset that these controllers are less valuable as employees or less skilled. I know people at higher level facilities that don't know their asshole from a hole in the ground, and some at lower levels who are skilled and good employees.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Why should they not have the ability to move? especially to mid levels via a level cap? It gets really old the mindset that these controllers are less valuable as employees or less skilled. I know people at higher level facilities that don't know their asshole from a hole in the ground, and some at lower levels who are skilled and good employees.

Again, I don't know anyone that has said or indicated that low level controllers are less skilled or are crap, and past NCEPT selections have shown otherwise as well. Everyone knows that most people start at low facilities and usually have to work their way up. If you got a 10 or higher for your first facility you were lucky (for the most part lol).

I do believe mid level applicants should be considered for advancement to high level facilities before 5, 6, and 7s. This would create voids for low level people to advance etc.

 

[Move78]

They should have the ability to move. And they do. More so than other facility levels have. The early stages of NCEPT has really helped controllers that are, on paper, less desired because of lack of options for the receiving facilities. But 4 5 or 6s going to 12s that 10s want to go to is obviously not how this is supposed to work. The receiving facilities don't want it that way, the agency doesn't want it that way and the union doesn't want it that way. The majority of movement has been out of lower facilities. I'm at a 6 and I think a cap makes sense. But it's possible that now that things are starting to really settle around the national average that it'll be tougher to make ridiculous jumps now so those controllers from low levels that are desperate to advance will actually go to 8-10s cuz they're getting passed over by the 12s finally.

 

[Mike Kilo]

You are right for the most part about the high level facilities not wanting it that way, but there are quite a few sought after facilities that are actively selecting low level applicants. They aren't forced by categories and priority order etc. Those are what I have issue with. If nobody else can be released, by all means pick up someone from a 5 VfR tower (still not how the system should operate), but they are ranking low level individuals above many other far more qualified applicants.

 

[Move78]

You are right for the most part about the high level facilities not wanting it that way, but there are quite a few sought after facilities that are actively selecting low level applicants. They aren't forced by categories and priority order etc. Those are what I have issue with. If nobody else can be released, by all means pick up someone from a 5 VfR tower (still not how the system should operate), but they are ranking low level individuals above many other far more qualified applicants.

I agree with this too. But they used to be allowed to choose their people. Now they're only allowed to rank. And for the top 10 priority facilities that's basically choosing. But for the rest it's not. And you have to give them some kind of say in who they get. There's a lot of shitty employees out there. We don't see the full story on paper. People that are certified but still stink at airtraffic, people that don't work well with others, people that aren't in the union. Can't blame facilities for trying to preserve a culture.

 

[OscarHotel]

I agree with this too. But they used to be allowed to choose their people. Now they're only allowed to rank. And for the top 10 priority facilities that's basically choosing. But for the rest it's not. And you have to give them some kind of say in who they get. There's a lot of shitty employees out there. We don't see the full story on paper. People that are certified but still stink at airtraffic, people that don't work well with others, people that aren't in the union. Can't blame facilities for trying to preserve a culture.

Most of that is subjective though. NCEPT is at least attempting to eliminate some of the good ol' boy network where you had to know someone to move. The panel & ATMs still have access to your performance evaluations and they certainly could make a call to your facility if they wanted to. End of the day the concern of the FAA and NATCA is staffing, and hearsay or "culture" just cant be an excuse anymore. Its cold hard staffing numbers. Some dirtbags will certainly fall through the cracks and cause problems at their new facility, but at least its an attempt at standardizing the system and trying to make it more equitable for all employees. It would be great if there was a better system in place or we had the numbers to be able to choose the best people to transfer in like we would want to, but that is way in the future at this point.