RTF Pass/Fail?
- Thread starter Foxmike
- Start date
If you are off the street it is job Jeopardy pass fail, if you are coming from an Faa Facility it is not
Atcbrownie
Active Member
- Messages
- 85
TSEW is a workshop not a class so it can never be pass/fail.
Phillyman2633
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 1,098
Few guys who just got back from TSEW said the cranky old fucks out there had their hands tied and aren't supposed to teach C to A anymore because nobody uses it in the field
Yeah that’s a great idea. Let’s take people who are tower certified at their facilities, probably tower cic’s used for staffing at already understaffed up/downs, and if they don’t figure out radar and learn stupid academy airspace with with idiotic procedures and trash LOAs in 2 weeks let’s wash them out, rather than have them go back to the real life airspace they actually know and where their facility needs them, because washing a trainee for an arbitrary reason outside of training on real traffic at their actual facility in their actual airspace they actually need to know is a great way to increase staffing at the hardest to staff facilities.
People already don’t want to go to up/downs because of the ncept disparities, therefore making it so if a person goes to one their job is at risk again over something not directly relevant is a brilliant idea. Look at the big brain on brad here. I bet you’re the ATO COO aren’t you?
Last edited:
Phillyman2633
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 1,098
No because real facilities with airspace constraints and more than 5 aircraft don't have the luxury of arbitrarily slowing to maintain space and have to actually vector, which they don't teach in TSEW
32andBelow
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 9,290
En route has job jeopardy labs multiple times through training
You're right but once you've become CPC you don't face job jeopardy again, unless we talk about the 2nd consecutive training failure (which is a different discussion)
So does the track at at up/down, after the academy. But they are the facility in the labs you do before you start training on radar at your facility, labs set in your actual real airspace, not some stupid pretend made up place. Washing someone partially certified out of a real facility because they don’t quite get radar in 2 weeks at the made up academy is the definition of stupid. The little wenis who ran the academy tried to do that shit, he was sick of bargain unit people wearing shorts instead of cowering in fear and he got BTFO
32andBelow
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 9,290
How many people fail rtf then get certified. Failing an initial academy course with certifications would be pretty sad
You can’t fail RTF if you’re coming from a facility, so zero. RTF isn’t an initial academy course, unless they are direct hires to N90 or prior experience hires going to a tracon. Radar takes time for some people to click. Different rules, different way of thinking. If you haven’t worked at and up/down and gone to RTF, you don’t get an opinion.
There’s still the ability to wash at the labs at the home facility, where is where it should be. Giving the academy more power, and taking bodies away from facilities that already are desperately staffed on the basis of an informational course is fucking stupid. Tiny example… say you have a WT sep error with a super. But you work at a facility that can’t even land supers. Why wash someone out of their real facility for not knowing something they will never have to apply in their entire career? That’s why they can wash in the labs at home, but not at the academy, as it should be.
32andBelow
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 9,290
Why do they even need rtf then? Can the lab instructor not run through the power points. That’s all we get at the center to learn about the radar rules
RTF is the same as RSide class/sims
32andBelow
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 9,290
Except apparently it’s not cus you can’t wash out
Overall RTF is pointless for many facilities imo. I learned a bunch of stuff that I didn't use when I got back. "Dont vector the overflight", well that's 50% of fucking radar. Sequencing the final with someone else... how many level 7s and below do that? C to A, pointless and never used when I got back. My facility was split weird, departures/arrival. You don't do arrivals until you learn departure side so essentially everything you learn at RTF wouldn't be used for months anyways. I learned more by simply monitoring others than RTF ever taught me.
The only thing I feel I learned and brought back was speed control. Which many old timers at my facility were 100% against for some reason. Only real issue is speed control at the academy works perfectly and everyone slows to exactly what you want which is unrealistic.
Oh and RTF shouldnt be pass/fail because some of those instructors suck. My first set of instructors did nothing but criticize every little thing we did. Luckily they both went on leave and we had two new instructors who wanted us to try things and learn from our mistakes as it should be.
The only thing I feel I learned and brought back was speed control. Which many old timers at my facility were 100% against for some reason. Only real issue is speed control at the academy works perfectly and everyone slows to exactly what you want which is unrealistic.
Oh and RTF shouldnt be pass/fail because some of those instructors suck. My first set of instructors did nothing but criticize every little thing we did. Luckily they both went on leave and we had two new instructors who wanted us to try things and learn from our mistakes as it should be.
You haven’t been at an updown or lower level facility so you really can’t understand. At a center you have a whole training department. Dedicated RPOs, contractors etc., classrooms, dedicated labs. Most lower updowns just have a guy. Just one. Or they don’t even have that and random controllers, supes, support people take turns helping out. Where they go.
The lower level facilities lack the infrastructure to cover basic radar fundamentals, and rather than staff out a bunch of facilities with a bunch of extra people who would work a few times a year, it’s more cost effective to send people to get the training.
After rtf they go back to their facility with a rating, based on the points. This rating helps tell the facility how ready they are to train. Someone who scores low might need more help, someone who gets High 90s is pretty ready to go. I’ve seen as low as a 29/100 score at rtf become a perfectly capable cpc, they just needed some time for it to really click. They still have to pass the labs at the facility, those are pass/fail per the national training order. You want them to have two sets of pass fail labs for the same position, one of which isn’t even on the actual airspace you’ll be working? Sounds like bullshit to me
32andBelow
Legendary Member
- Messages
- 9,290
I think you highly overestimate what a center training department is. I’m not even against rtf it’s weird you don’t have to pass it
The fact that it’s an actual department means it’s light years ahead of anything you’ll find at a mid to low level updown, where at best, it’s a single training contractor doing it all, often it’s not even that. You do have to pass it, by attending. It’s for informational purposes, unlike the labs at your facility, which you take after you learn radar basics at rtf. Just like labs you have at centers, those are pass/fail. If you were familiar with the actual course, you wouldn’t think it’s weird at all.
