The upcoming stacked leave apocalypse

Alpha_bravo2

Trusted Contributor
Messages
461
Everyone here just bitches that they can never get out of their tower so I thought if they’d contract it they could just go wherever.

I was totally happy with the union until they showed 0 solidarity towards us for the last 5 months.
It's not just towers there are centers and tracons that people are stuck at. I have worked at a slow 5 up/down that will lose its TRACON, and there are people there that don't want to leave the area. why should they have to change their livelihood to go to a facility where they don't want to be, and risk washing just for some extra bodies

Plus it's a little jacked up that you are making either a 6 digit salary or close to it, complaining about not getting training and a raise; yet advocating for those that are CPCs that make less than you to uproot their lives.
 
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PushingTin

Guest
Every conversation reverts back to trainees getting screwed by NATCA. Solidarity is strong in you guys. Contracting out level 4-5 facilities is the key move to what exactly? Solving the FAA’s problems 😂

There is almost no solidarity in NATCA generally. Especially not when certain groups intra union are privelaged well beyond others. Its dog eat dog and mostly complete selfishness except for the very largest issues. Contract, privatization (even that is a shitshow), shutdowns, etc.
 

Phillytroll69

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
242
Facility
JNU Juneau Tower
It's not just towers there are centers and tracons that people are stuck at. I have worked at a slow 5 up/down that will lose its TRACON, and there are people there that don't want to leave the area. why should they have to change their livelihood to go to a facility where they don't want to be, and risk washing just for some extra bodies

Plus it's a little jacked up that you are making either a 6 digit salary or close to it, complaining about not getting training and a raise; yet advocating for those that are CPCs that make less than you to uproot their lives.
I don't want to get into a dick swinging contest some 5's can have moments when patterns are full and stuff- but if every facility was the same pay I guarantee they would fill up fast. People absolutely should at least have the opportunity to chase the dollars. Even training at some of the high level up downs 6 figures doesn't go as far?
 

CaptainObvious

Forum Sage
Messages
1,298
It's not just towers there are centers and tracons that people are stuck at. I have worked at a slow 5 up/down that will lose its TRACON, and there are people there that don't want to leave the area. why should they have to change their livelihood to go to a facility where they don't want to be, and risk washing just for some extra bodies

Plus it's a little jacked up that you are making either a 6 digit salary or close to it, complaining about not getting training and a raise; yet advocating for those that are CPCs that make less than you to uproot their lives.
Please someone make an eye roll reaction for this website
 

edds93

Trusted Contributor
Messages
230
For anyone who says we shouldn't be looking at closing small towers/tracons, this is a picture of the long term parking lot at my facility today. 5 cars. That's it. We have one daily commercial flight and I often ask how many passengers are on board out of curiosity. Today there were 8. We used to have 3 daily flights that averaged 40-45 people on each one. All 3 of our private jets have been grounded since March. We have like 5 training aircraft based at the field and then another 25 or so ga guys that occasionally fly on the weekend. How can anyone look at this situation and say that staffing and maintaining our facility is not an egregious appropriation of taxpayer funds. Since the local politicians insist on keeping this ghost town of an airport running in the interest of protecting very few jobs at enormous cost, the local taxpayers should be stuck with the costs of doing so. However, federal taxpayers shouldn't also be burdened. This place is the titanic and has been slowly sinking for decades and nothing is going to change its destiny.

For anyone that says, "Oh but what about all the people that want to live there." There is not a single controller or trainee at our facility that wants to be there. Everyone aspires to get out of this town someday and advance their career somewhere else. Even the people that are locals from the area would leave for greener pastures if given the opportunity. At a minimum, we should give up our airspace to a surrounding facility that wants it (we're already scheduled to 804, we should accelerate the process while traffic is down). However, in addition to giving up the airspace, there is absolutely no reason for the field to towered. Many uncontrolled fields are much busier than we will ever be. Protecting jobs just for the sake of people having a job is completely ridiculous, especially when the controllers here could and should be much better utilized somewhere else in the NAS.

Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and do not represent the FAA 20200721_004836.jpg
 
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edds93

Trusted Contributor
Messages
230
Also, forgot to mention that the bailing out of airlines is a complete misallocation of capital that is distorting the market and squandering precious resources, i.e. taxpayer dollars. Clearly demand has shrunk and will not return to what it previously was for an extremely long time at a minimum (or never if you have been following along with my thesis). By bailing out the airline, the government is preventing them from doing the necessary and inevitable restructuring that is needed to take place in order for them to survive. With less demand, they will clearly need less people and less aircraft to meet demand. The bailout money is simply a means to keep big money jobs on the payroll and off the unemployment statistics while catering to the big airline special interests to mitigate losses for stock holders. In the end, it isn't going to save any jobs, only delay the inevitable. This example is very reminiscent of my facility, but the only difference is there is no incentive for the government to efficiently allocate funds to suit demand because a) it isn't their money and b) they don't have to make a profit. I get paid the same whether I talk to 0 planes or 3 planes in a day. Either way, this can't end well.
 
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PushingTin

Guest
For anyone who says we shouldn't be looking at closing small towers/tracons, this is a picture of the long term parking lot at my facility today. 5 cars. That's it. We have one daily commercial flight and I often ask how many passengers are on board out of curiosity. Today there were 8. We used to have 3 daily flights that averaged 40-45 people on each one. All 3 of our private jets have been grounded since March. We have like 5 training aircraft based at the field and then another 25 or so ga guys that occasionally fly on the weekend. How can anyone look at this situation and say that staffing and maintaining our facility is not an egregious appropriation of taxpayer funds. Since the local politicians insist on keeping this ghost town of an airport running in the interest of protecting very few jobs at enormous cost, the local taxpayers should be stuck with the costs of doing so. However, federal taxpayers shouldn't also be burdened. This place is the titanic and has been slowly sinking for decades and nothing is going to change its destiny.
For anyone that says, "Oh but what about all the people that want to live there." There is not a single controller or trainee at our facility that would wants to be there. Everyone aspires to get out of this town someday and advance their career somewhere else. Even the people that are locals from the area would leave for greener pastures given the opportunity. At a minimum, we should give up our airspace to a surrounding facility that wants it (we're already scheduled to 804, we should accelerate the process while traffic is down). However, in addition to giving up the airspace, there is absolutely no reason for the field to towered. Many uncontrolled fields are much busier than we will ever be. Protecting jobs just for the sake of people having a job is completely ridiculous, especially when the controllers here could and should be much better utilized somewhere else in the NAS.
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and do not represent the FAA View attachment 4157

powerful testimony. reads like a magazine piece. and an obituary.

"There is not a single controller or trainee at our facility that wants to be here." brutal.

To think there are controllers not too far from there who make over 300k annually, and attend the same national functions as you with the same job description. The same training classes. Whole different prognosis. The only silver lining may be when the inevitable Midwest ATC contracting out comes in 4-5 years (hard time to spend in solitary), you'll get to call your shot on a follow on. Assuming you aren't completely dead inside and haven't resigned. The soft bigotry of low expectations. #BestJobinTheWorld

Either way, this can't end well.

Sooner or later God'll cut you down
 

edds93

Trusted Contributor
Messages
230
PushingTin Don't get me wrong, some tolerate it better than others but the boredom alone is insufferable. At the end of the day, everyone would leave on their own free will, no move money necessary. Shit, at this point I'd pay them 27K to move. God help me if I have to do another 2 years of hard time, let alone 4 or 5.
 
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PushingTin

Guest
PushingTin Don't get me wrong, some tolerate it better than others but the boredom alone is insufferable. At the end of the day, everyone would leave on their own free will, no move money necessary. Shit, at this point I'd pay them 27K to move. God help me if I have to do another 2 years of hard time, let alone 4 or 5.

Those places are not healthy. Especially for young people.

 

TO

Member
Messages
3
For anyone who says we shouldn't be looking at closing small towers/tracons, this is a picture of the long term parking lot at my facility today. 5 cars. That's it. We have one daily commercial flight and I often ask how many passengers are on board out of curiosity. Today there were 8. We used to have 3 daily flights that averaged 40-45 people on each one. All 3 of our private jets have been grounded since March. We have like 5 training aircraft based at the field and then another 25 or so ga guys that occasionally fly on the weekend. How can anyone look at this situation and say that staffing and maintaining our facility is not an egregious appropriation of taxpayer funds. Since the local politicians insist on keeping this ghost town of an airport running in the interest of protecting very few jobs at enormous cost, the local taxpayers should be stuck with the costs of doing so. However, federal taxpayers shouldn't also be burdened. This place is the titanic and has been slowly sinking for decades and nothing is going to change its destiny.

For anyone that says, "Oh but what about all the people that want to live there." There is not a single controller or trainee at our facility that wants to be there. Everyone aspires to get out of this town someday and advance their career somewhere else. Even the people that are locals from the area would leave for greener pastures if given the opportunity. At a minimum, we should give up our airspace to a surrounding facility that wants it (we're already scheduled to 804, we should accelerate the process while traffic is down). However, in addition to giving up the airspace, there is absolutely no reason for the field to towered. Many uncontrolled fields are much busier than we will ever be. Protecting jobs just for the sake of people having a job is completely ridiculous, especially when the controllers here could and should be much better utilized somewhere else in the NAS.

Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and do not represent the FAA View attachment 4157
Ah Edwin A. Link field. I fly in a few times a year to visit my parents, and it is a sad ghost town these days. I learned to fly there in 2010 and even then they had 3 airlines and in-terminal dining etc. I count my blessings the FAA never banished me back “home” to that purgatory.
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
885
For anyone who says we shouldn't be looking at closing small towers/tracons, this is a picture of the long term parking lot at my facility today. 5 cars. That's it. We have one daily commercial flight and I often ask how many passengers are on board out of curiosity. Today there were 8. We used to have 3 daily flights that averaged 40-45 people on each one. All 3 of our private jets have been grounded since March. We have like 5 training aircraft based at the field and then another 25 or so ga guys that occasionally fly on the weekend. How can anyone look at this situation and say that staffing and maintaining our facility is not an egregious appropriation of taxpayer funds. Since the local politicians insist on keeping this ghost town of an airport running in the interest of protecting very few jobs at enormous cost, the local taxpayers should be stuck with the costs of doing so. However, federal taxpayers shouldn't also be burdened. This place is the titanic and has been slowly sinking for decades and nothing is going to change its destiny.

For anyone that says, "Oh but what about all the people that want to live there." There is not a single controller or trainee at our facility that wants to be there. Everyone aspires to get out of this town someday and advance their career somewhere else. Even the people that are locals from the area would leave for greener pastures if given the opportunity. At a minimum, we should give up our airspace to a surrounding facility that wants it (we're already scheduled to 804, we should accelerate the process while traffic is down). However, in addition to giving up the airspace, there is absolutely no reason for the field to towered. Many uncontrolled fields are much busier than we will ever be. Protecting jobs just for the sake of people having a job is completely ridiculous, especially when the controllers here could and should be much better utilized somewhere else in the NAS.

Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and do not represent the FAA View attachment 4157
I respect you for exposing and tellin it, hopefully a overzealous Fac Rep don't see this and gets offended. I don't expect controller furloughs but one offshoot of the COVID thing I hope to see if the 804 process fast racked and put on steroids and/or the contracting out of level 5 and below towers only (give those controllers 27K to move anywhere that is not projected staffed over 100%). Yes, there will be about 15% of the controllers in those places pissed, homesteaders or people wanting to ride out their career on low traffic. But with the way the Agency places people now I assure you it would be 15% at most who oppose and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or at least they used to and should now).
 

Alpha_bravo2

Trusted Contributor
Messages
461
Has the agency ever offered a buyout that isn't retirement related. For example 804 happens and they do contract out a place would they offer an employee who wants to stay a severance package of some sort?
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
885
Has the agency ever offered a buyout that isn't retirement related. For example 804 happens and they do contract out a place would they offer an employee who wants to stay a severance package of some sort?
There is a formula for severance packages in the contract but to the best of my knowledge it was never used.
 

aaran34

Active Member
FAA
Messages
80
Facility
ZDV Denver Center
For anyone who says we shouldn't be looking at closing small towers/tracons, this is a picture of the long term parking lot at my facility today. 5 cars. That's it. We have one daily commercial flight and I often ask how many passengers are on board out of curiosity. Today there were 8. We used to have 3 daily flights that averaged 40-45 people on each one. All 3 of our private jets have been grounded since March. We have like 5 training aircraft based at the field and then another 25 or so ga guys that occasionally fly on the weekend. How can anyone look at this situation and say that staffing and maintaining our facility is not an egregious appropriation of taxpayer funds. Since the local politicians insist on keeping this ghost town of an airport running in the interest of protecting very few jobs at enormous cost, the local taxpayers should be stuck with the costs of doing so. However, federal taxpayers shouldn't also be burdened. This place is the titanic and has been slowly sinking for decades and nothing is going to change its destiny.

For anyone that says, "Oh but what about all the people that want to live there." There is not a single controller or trainee at our facility that wants to be there. Everyone aspires to get out of this town someday and advance their career somewhere else. Even the people that are locals from the area would leave for greener pastures if given the opportunity. At a minimum, we should give up our airspace to a surrounding facility that wants it (we're already scheduled to 804, we should accelerate the process while traffic is down). However, in addition to giving up the airspace, there is absolutely no reason for the field to towered. Many uncontrolled fields are much busier than we will ever be. Protecting jobs just for the sake of people having a job is completely ridiculous, especially when the controllers here could and should be much better utilized somewhere else in the NAS.

Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and do not represent the FAA View attachment 4157
Gillette, Wyoming contract tower just closed permanently. City decided there wasn’t enough benefit to keep it open after all this Covid stuff. Hasn’t been a huge impact on us Center guys, after all, we’re just one in one out anyways.

 

edds93

Trusted Contributor
Messages
230
I respect you for exposing and tellin it, hopefully a overzealous Fac Rep don't see this and gets offended. I don't expect controller furloughs but one offshoot of the COVID thing I hope to see if the 804 process fast racked and put on steroids and/or the contracting out of level 5 and below towers only (give those controllers 27K to move anywhere that is not projected staffed over 100%). Yes, there will be about 15% of the controllers in those places pissed, homesteaders or people wanting to ride out their career on low traffic. But with the way the Agency places people now I assure you it would be 15% at most who oppose and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or at least they used to and should now).
If the truth is never revealed, then nothing will ever change. Not that I believe my words will have any impact on any future decisions, but I would love for someone in a position to change the situation to hear what I'm saying and at least look into it on their own accord and try to keep a straight face when trying to explain to anyone why keeping my facility open is necessary and justified.

Gillette, Wyoming contract tower just closed permanently. City decided there wasn’t enough benefit to keep it open after all this Covid stuff. Hasn’t been a huge impact on us Center guys, after all, we’re just one in one out anyways.
According to airnav, we only do 4 more ops/day than them. The article said their cost per operation was about $28 and they only had 3 controllers. I'd hate to see our cost per operation with over a dozen controllers, 2 supes,1 atm, a secretary, and 5 tech ops guys that all make over $110k a year.
 

Mike Kilo

Legendary Member
Messages
1,613
According to airnav, we only do 4 more ops/day than them. The article said their cost per operation was about $28 and they only had 3 controllers. I'd hate to see our cost per operation with over a dozen controllers, 2 supes,1 atm, a secretary, and 5 tech ops guys that all make over $110k a year.
You ain’t lying. Better just cut y’all loose, save that tax payer dime! OT is cheaper than a full time employee salary/bennies!
 
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