Training hold

[mnsalty]

Its such a weird topic.

One one hand, I don't like that a ton of folks out there have had their careers seemingly put on hold indefinitely. I don't care what the CPC population says (me included), but that does effect compensation, retirement, etc. Saying 'shut up and enjoy your free vacation' is a cop out statement in my opinion and doesn't sit well with me. I'm at the point personally where I want more money as opposed to time off. There absolutely should be hazard pay if it is deemed too dangerous for nonessential to come to work. Either it's too dangerous to come to work or its not. We are still facing mass retirements and this training backlog, whenever it does start again, is only going to make it worse.

I'd love to see training start again soon, and it should be a facility by facility decision on how to implement it. But there are obviously things that trainees now won't see that they previously did. It might be harder for me to give a recommendation based on current traffic. How can I teach feeding the guy working the final when everything is always combined? How can I teach speed control when there are barely sequences to sequence anymore? If anything, I think there needs to be more of an emphasis on lab training, where trainees can actually see these things. It should be more of a do or die regiment than it is at many places.

On the other hand, there are CPCs out there, including at my facility, who come to work completely paranoid everyday about getting the 'rona. You have to respect those wishes too.

The fact that the virus has been completely polarized and politicized has been really detrimental. I still believe if we weren't in an election cycle the overreaction to C19 wouldn't have been anywhere near as drastic. There would have been an emphasis on hand washing/hygiene and keeping old folks at home but everything would have stayed open. Now we've seemingly had a race between state/local/gov't officials to see who can me the most restrictive. We have made the cure far worse than the actual virus.

Overall I really agree with you, except for the bold...

the problem with not certifying someone because they won't see this is that if they aren't going to see it this year, they probably won't see it next year. Will there be some over separation in the years to come when traffic does pick back up? Probably. We can train on combined sectors and when traffic picks back up (slowly, not overnight) people will just have some skills to relearn (or learn).
When airports get new flights or rushes do we ask the airlines to suspect all traffic or not do it until we can "train" our controllers? No. We deal with it. Maybe the first time it won't be pretty, but controllers are adaptable and they will figure it out. It's not about seeing every situation in training, it's about if the trainee has the skills and mindset to be able to work out situations they haven't seen.
I get the concern, and I've seen it in the field (at my level 4 tower... ), where traffic goes away, a runway was closed, the military was on hiatus, whatever. People still certified. Was it a show and a half when the runway opened back up? Yup. But traffic isn't coming back overnight, and there will be an adjustment period. We gotta figure out a way to move forward. It doesn't have to be all at once, but this can't go on forever. It won't.

 

[Dontbotherme]

Imagine if you were a trainee. I know stepping outside of yourself is hard for some of you people on here. I imagine you’d be extremely frustrated too, especially if management forced you to work, and even to work pointless D-sides while completely being silent on training. Some areas have a high cost of living, and trainees depend on some sort of upward momentum in being able to afford to live their lives in a way that’s beyond scrimping and saving waiting for the FAA. Before the “lucky to have a job” argument pops up, it is possible to both be thankful for a job and not automatically take the shovels of shit being fed to you. Salty is right, this isn’t a sustainable way of continuing for an indeterminate amount of time. But I guess as long as it’s all gravy on the 5/10 or 5/5 for you, everything is right in the world and we shouldn’t examine ways to safely train, at the very least, the people that have been working shoulder to shoulder with their “brothers and sisters” during this entire period.

I think there should’ve been/should be updates for employees. That 100% falls on the shoulders of management, for all employees, and the union, for the dues paying members. Has anyone actually contacted their RVP to ask for an training update? I’m sure that answer is “NO” because trainees laughed at my advice a month and a half ago yet they want to come on here and bitch, but not try to get answers or do anything for themselves. Management has a right to assign work and if they said show up to work next week, the overwhelming majority of employees would be back at work next week. I guarantee you the agency money crunchers aren’t willing to take the liability to have high risk individuals and more people than necessary, in the building, because of COVID-19. Few ATMs would even be willing to try and make that risky of a decision for their facility because someone could get seriously sick and/or die and no district manager is going to put their own balls on the line and let a lowly ATM make those decisions.

Something like this is the exact reason I was and I am still against privatization. If we were privatized, furloughs and/or layoffs would’ve already happened or about to happen, in conjunction with aviation layoffs this Fall. So, yes, I think we are lucky to have this job and be government employees with good healthcare and an almost guaranteed pension.

The Agency isn’t going to utilize the training labs especially if they moved live scopes there to be a fall back and prevent a facility from going ATC-0. It would be nice for trainees to get some simulation training, but that isn’t possible, especially if facilities are/about to use those rooms for fall backs.

I know you responded to an older post, but I’ll ask you now... Are you willing to completely isolate, from your family, for the foreseeable future, to go back to work, train, and potentially certify?

 

[CaptainObvious]

I think there should’ve been/should be updates for employees. That 100% falls on the shoulders of management, for all employees, and the union, for the dues paying members. Has anyone actually contacted their RVP to ask for an training update? I’m sure that answer is “NO” because trainees laughed at my advice a month and a half ago yet they want to come on here and bitch, but not try to get answers or do anything for themselves. Management has a right to assign work and if they said show up to work next week, the overwhelming majority of employees would be back at work next week. I guarantee you the agency money crunchers aren’t willing to take the liability to have high risk individuals and more people than necessary, in the building, because of COVID-19. Few ATMs would even be willing to try and make that risky of a decision for their facility because someone could get seriously sick and/or die and no district manager is going to put their own balls on the line and let a lowly ATM make those decisions.

Something like this is the exact reason I was and I am still against privatization. If we were privatized, furloughs and/or layoffs would’ve already happened or about to happen, in conjunction with aviation layoffs this Fall. So, yes, I think we are lucky to have this job and be government employees with good healthcare and an almost guaranteed pension.

The Agency isn’t going to utilize the training labs especially if they moved live scopes there to be a fall back and prevent a facility from going ATC-0. It would be nice for trainees to get some simulation training, but that isn’t possible, especially if facilities are/about to use those rooms for fall backs.

I know you responded to an older post, but I’ll ask you now... Are you willing to completely isolate, from your family, for the foreseeable future, to go back to work, train, and potentially certify?

RVP said training update “very soon” that was 1-2 months ago. RVP from my old region said basically status quo and no new updates

I think there should’ve been/should be updates for employees. That 100% falls on the shoulders of management, for all employees, and the union, for the dues paying members. Has anyone actually contacted their RVP to ask for an training update? I’m sure that answer is “NO” because trainees laughed at my advice a month and a half ago yet they want to come on here and bitch, but not try to get answers or do anything for themselves. Management has a right to assign work and if they said show up to work next week, the overwhelming majority of employees would be back at work next week. I guarantee you the agency money crunchers aren’t willing to take the liability to have high risk individuals and more people than necessary, in the building, because of COVID-19. Few ATMs would even be willing to try and make that risky of a decision for their facility because someone could get seriously sick and/or die and no district manager is going to put their own balls on the line and let a lowly ATM make those decisions.

Something like this is the exact reason I was and I am still against privatization. If we were privatized, furloughs and/or layoffs would’ve already happened or about to happen, in conjunction with aviation layoffs this Fall. So, yes, I think we are lucky to have this job and be government employees with good healthcare and an almost guaranteed pension.

The Agency isn’t going to utilize the training labs especially if they moved live scopes there to be a fall back and prevent a facility from going ATC-0. It would be nice for trainees to get some simulation training, but that isn’t possible, especially if facilities are/about to use those rooms for fall backs.

I know you responded to an older post, but I’ll ask you now... Are you willing to completely isolate, from your family, for the foreseeable future, to go back to work, train, and potentially certify?

As far as isolating, I’ve been at work this entire pandemic, so it’s not a matter of going back to train. If I had the option of training and quarantining to get the last few hours I need for CPC, I would 100% do it, it’s a huge raise for me and buying a home etc are all on hold in the meantime

 

[ClearanceClarence]

RVP said training update “very soon” that was 1-2 months ago. RVP from my old region said basically status quo and no new updates

I asked my RVP in June if there was any word on training and all he said was “all training decisions are being made at the national level.” Which is the same thing that’s been said all along. I know for some the “trainees wanna bitch and don’t do anything about it” is pretty easy when “iTs AbOuT sAfEtY, eNjOy YoU’rE fReE vAcAtIoN” argument falls through, but it’s still bullshit.

 

[mnsalty]

Something like this is the exact reason I was and I am still against privatization. If we were privatized, furloughs and/or layoffs would’ve already happened or about to happen, in conjunction with aviation layoffs this Fall. So, yes, I think we are lucky to have this job and be government employees with good healthcare and an almost guaranteed pension.

Honestly, let's do it. Screw your staffing, the heck with planning for retirements or covering for decreasing staffing or existing staffing problems/attempting to catch up or get to a somewhat normal staffing level (AT PLACES LIKE A80, for example ....). I'm 100% for it at this point. This is literally what I've been saying from day 1 (tongue in cheek, obviously, which some people on here clearly don't get) - get rid of the fat in the budget and let's see how this works out. Just like the shutdown which ZDC/LGA ended, this crap wouldn't fly. Let's watch your magical plan of keeping everyone at home forever fall into place.

The Agency isn’t going to utilize the training labs especially if they moved live scopes there to be a fall back and prevent a facility from going ATC-0. It would be nice for trainees to get some simulation training, but that isn’t possible, especially if facilities are/about to use those rooms for fall backs.

Yup.

 

[ATOH]

Overall I really agree with you, except for the bold...

If I've never seen you split up fighters when you are already down the shitter, or run a busy final, or any other typical pre-covid traffic level scenario, even in a lab setting, I'm not just going to assume you'll figure it out when you actually do see it.

 

[mnsalty]

If I've never seen you split up fighters, or run a busy final, or any other typical pre-covid traffic level scenario, even in a lab setting, I'm not just going to assume you'll figure it out when you actually do see it.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying. I'm not going to get into specifics but you'll have to trust me, I get it. But specifically, the final isn't going to get busy overnight. Airlines are planning mass exodus of layoffs/buyouts/whatever, so the busy final coming back anytime soon is a myth. In terms of splitting up fighters, it's my understanding the military is still flying, so floor training should cover that. What other pre-covid traffic situations that won't come back slow enough to figure it out can't be addressed or dealt with? Let's say we certified someone tomorrow who hadn't done a split up. Knowing how slow traffic is right now, is there any reason they couldn't say "FANG11 Standby" and turn to the guy next to them and ask for help? It's called general supervision for a reason.
I'm really not trying to pick a fight, I truly get what you're saying, but why can't we even discuss a way to move forward?

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Overall I really agree with you, except for the bold...

the problem with not certifying someone because they won't see this is that if they aren't going to see it this year, they probably won't see it next year. Will there be some over separation in the years to come when traffic does pick back up? Probably. We can train on combined sectors and when traffic picks back up (slowly, not overnight) people will just have some skills to relearn (or learn).
When airports get new flights or rushes do we ask the airlines to suspect all traffic or not do it until we can "train" our controllers? No. We deal with it. Maybe the first time it won't be pretty, but controllers are adaptable and they will figure it out. It's not about seeing every situation in training, it's about if the trainee has the skills and mindset to be able to work out situations they haven't seen.
I get the concern, and I've seen it in the field (at my level 4 tower... ), where traffic goes away, a runway was closed, the military was on hiatus, whatever. People still certified. Was it a show and a half when the runway opened back up? Yup. But traffic isn't coming back overnight, and there will be an adjustment period. We gotta figure out a way to move forward. It doesn't have to be all at once, but this can't go on forever. It won't.

They're not talking about seeing every situation. Having a feeder position that feeds a final position is standard in any tracon. If its been worked combined for the past four months you can't just train on that and call it good. Those are two distinctly different positions that need to be trained on separately to see their actual job functions.

 

[mnsalty]

RVP said training update “very soon” that was 1-2 months ago. RVP from my old region said basically status quo and no new updates

Yeah... plus...trainees who have attempted to contact RVPs aren't going to post it here because it's a suspicion NATCA has moles on here. It would instantly dox them and they'd be concerned it would get back to their facility and they wouldn't certify as a result. They're taking enough of a risk as it is going over the facreps head.

They're not talking about seeing every situation. Having a feeder position that feeds a final position is standard in any tracon. If its been worked combined for the past four months you can't just train on that and call it good. Those are two distinctly different positions that need to be trained on separately to see their actual job functions.

But again, if feeder/final isn't going to be split for the next 4 years, what's the point in training on it separate in post-covid reduced traffic? We can't seriously wait 4 years to train on it. Also, if the tracon is big enough to have feeder/finals - they probably have other scopes to train on. Get the sims started on those other positions, do the feeder/finals last and hope traffic has come back by then. If it hasn't, we gotta find a way to deal with it.

I'm telling anyone who will listen, this isn't sustainable forever. Traffic is not coming back in 2020, it's not coming back in 2021, it's probably not coming back in 2022. Wrap your heads about this.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

But again, if feeder/final isn't going to be split for the next 4 years, what's the point in training on it separate in post-covid reduced traffic? We can't seriously wait 4 years to train on it. Also, if the tracon is big enough to have feeder/finals - they probably have other scopes to train on. Get the sims started on those other positions, do the feeder/finals last and hope traffic has come back by then. If it hasn't, we gotta find a way to deal wisn't sustainable forever. Traffic is not coming back in 2020, it's not coming back in 2021, it's probably not coming back in 2022. Wrap your heads about this.

You're literally just making stuff up now. Feeder/final will be split again before four years. And its the only positions I have left so there aren't other things I can train on.

And has been mentioned at least twice on this very page most facilities are using their labs as emergency backup locations if the facility gets a positive test. Having trainees in their running problems all day means you no longer have a backup if an essential employee gets covid and contaminates the operation.

 

[mnsalty]

You're literally just making stuff up now. Feeder/final will be split again before four years. And its the only positions I have left so there aren't other things I can train on.

And has been mentioned at least twice on this very page most facilities are using their labs as emergency backup locations if the facility gets a positive test. Having trainees in their running problems all day means you no longer have a backup if an essential employee gets covid and contaminates the operation.

I mean honestly then, what's your suggestion? I'm not saying open up the labs and contaminate them with dirty trainees, but what's your solution to this? All this "wait for traffic to come back" thing is is a bunch of boomers not wanting anyone to have it easier than they did. Period.

 

[PushingTin]

.

 

[Dontbotherme]

But again, if feeder/final isn't going to be split for the next 4 years, what's the point in training on it separate in post-covid reduced traffic? We can't seriously wait 4 years to train on it. Also, if the tracon is big enough to have feeder/finals - they probably have other scopes to train on. Get the sims started on those other positions, do the feeder/finals last and hope traffic has come back by then. If it hasn't, we gotta find a way to deal with it.

I'm telling anyone who will listen, this isn't sustainable forever. Traffic is not coming back in 2020, it's not coming back in 2021, it's probably not coming back in 2022. Wrap your heads about this.

Maybe that would work at slower facilities, but you can’t allow incomplete controllers to certify and hope they get better. If ATL or ORD are at 60-70% of their historic traffic, they are still the 3rd or 4th busiest airports in the world behind their own numbers! Maybe, maybe LAX or DFW’s old busier numbers just beat them. Maybe... I’ve already seen what incomplete certifications do here and those people couldn’t work pre COVID-19 traffic, still can’t work COVID-19 traffic so how in the hell are they going to work busier traffic?

 

[CaptainObvious]

Lol ok Rosa Parks.

You aren't a brother. You're just selfish and Salty that your scammed hardship didnt work out how you planned it. Entitled know-it-alls like you usually wash out, so you should be thankful COVID-19 will probably ultimately save your self righteous ass.

Ok ?. Certified on the busiest sector in the area pre-covid and can just about guarantee that I could work you into the ground. But keep assuming you know anything about me.

 

[PushingTin]

guarantee that I could work you into the ground.

Hahahahaha. At least Billy Bob ERRed to N90 the proper way! Go grab your inhaler before you get triggered too badly

 

[mnsalty]

Maybe that would work at slower facilities, but you can’t allow incomplete controllers to certify and hope they get better. If ATL or ORD are at 60-70% of their historic traffic, they are still the 3rd or 4th busiest airports in the world behind their own numbers! Maybe, maybe LAX or DFW’s old busier numbers just beat them. Maybe... I’ve already seen what incomplete certifications do here and those people couldn’t work pre COVID-19 traffic, still can’t work COVID-19 traffic so how in the hell are they going to work busier traffic?

I know we are never going to agree, so I don't know why i waste my energy on this, but you're still operating on the premise that traffic is coming back TOMORROW or next week or even next year. Did you miss the part about how Delta parked a substantial amount of airplanes and took 1000s of buyouts to prevent involuntary furloughs? the traffic isn't magically coming back overnight. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

 

[Dontbotherme]

I know we are never going to agree, so I don't know why i waste my energy on this, but you're still operating on the premise that traffic is coming back TOMORROW or next week or even next year. Did you miss the part about how Delta parked a substantial amount of airplanes and took 1000s of buyouts to prevent involuntary furloughs? the traffic isn't magically coming back overnight. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

I know we are never going to agree, so I don't know why i waste my energy on this, but you're still operating on the premise that traffic is coming back TOMORROW or next week or even next year. Did you miss the part about how Delta parked a substantial amount of airplanes and took 1000s of buyouts to prevent involuntary furloughs? the traffic isn't magically coming back overnight. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

You’re missing my point... If ATL and ORD are at 60-70% traffic, they’re still busier than 99% of the rest of the airports in the world! You can’t certify incomplete controllers at those places. Even at 40-50%, they are busier than the 90%+ of airports in the world. You can do the math and figure out the exact number for us though.. So even with parking thousands of jets, ATL and ORD are still busier than almost every airport in the world and that’s using their COVID-19 NUMBERS versus other facilities busiest numbers.

 

[PushingTin]

I know we are never going to agree, so I don't know why i waste my energy on this, but you're still operating on the premise that traffic is coming back TOMORROW or next week or even next year. Did you miss the part about how Delta parked a substantial amount of airplanes and took 1000s of buyouts to prevent involuntary furloughs? the traffic isn't magically coming back overnight. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

?

This is literally the breaking news banner when I went to check stonks!

American Airlines prepares to drop some service to smaller cities as expiration of federal aid nears

 

[mnsalty]

You’re missing my point... If ATL and ORD are at 60-70% traffic, they’re still busier than 99% of the rest of the airports in the world! You can’t certify incomplete controllers at those places. Even at 40-50%, they are busier than the 90%+ of airports in the world. You can do the math and figure out the exact number for us though.. So even with parking thousands of jets, ATL and ORD are still busier than almost every airport in the world and that’s using their COVID-19 NUMBERS versus other facilities busiest numbers.

the reason I'm missing your point is because I seriously don't understand the point you're trying to make? Since I'm a dumb level 4 tower flower, can you break it down in non-elite level 12 essential status terms for me?

 

[CaptainObvious]

the reason I'm missing your point is because I seriously don't understand the point you're trying to make? Since I'm a dumb level 4 tower flower, can you break it down in non-elite level 12 essential status terms for me?

I’ll break it down. I’m at A80 so we’re more important than every other facility. We work way harder and do more and are more difficult than everywhere