Training hold

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,009
We resumed training mid to late Sept... and no, we are still 5/10 right now. That's the problem. If you want to train than make it possible to train and go to two crews. If you want three crews to reduce the chances of going ATC-0 cool. But right our "training" is a farce. I knew when the email went out that we were going to train on 5/10 that it wasn't going to be feasible but apparently that wasn't evident to those making decisions. Although nobody really knew covid would spike like this knocking out multiple members of each crew so here we are.
Even if you have staffing training 10 days a month is rough
 

wrench978

Active Member
FAA
Messages
98
Facility
ZSU San Juan CERAP
I just dont agree. Maybe some places are really bad but we've got 6 trainees on the floor that are getting 2.5 hrs of training per day when they work. We have 2 academy arrivals and a prior experience inbound that arent even out of the classroom yet. We're literally training just as much if not more than we were pre-covid to ensure our ATM can't switch us off 5/5's back to 5/2's. Training times are going to be way down for most people if the Training Initiative is upheld again. When I trained at this same facility I was lucky to get 1hr of training a day with many days of no training. I think most facilities will bounce back quickly unless people withhold certification because they're waiting for the summer traffic or some bullshit like that.

Its great that your facility has been able to keep up with training, but I imagine that you are the exception to the rule. I can only speak for my facility, but the others that Ive talked to are in the same boat. We didnt have a single developmental in the door until about 2 weeks ago. And now, we have only Fully D-side certified devs in the building strictly to work traffic. We (Im one of the ones recently brought back) are all waiting for R side class, so we cant train even if we had the staffing. We will likely have 2 years between our most recent CPC and our next one. Maybe longer. There was a bit of a gap to begin with, which is why they sent like 25 of us to ZSU from the academy in the course of a year.
 

Soham

Active Member
Messages
62
Its great that your facility has been able to keep up with training, but I imagine that you are the exception to the rule. I can only speak for my facility, but the others that Ive talked to are in the same boat. We didnt have a single developmental in the door until about 2 weeks ago. And now, we have only Fully D-side certified devs in the building strictly to work traffic. We (Im one of the ones recently brought back) are all waiting for R side class, so we cant train even if we had the staffing. We will likely have 2 years between our most recent CPC and our next one. Maybe longer. There was a bit of a gap to begin with, which is why they sent like 25 of us to ZSU from the academy in the course of a year.

That sucks. Our classroom just started running again about a month ago. On the bright side, if the training initiative is enforced again you should be getting a ton of training time unless you guys were already training like that prior.
 
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OKbusyB

Trusted Contributor
Messages
377
Are you at a tower or a center? Cus center requires 4-6 month long courses and we have like 30 people waiting for this course. And that’s the first course. Also 2 hours of training is horrible. Some sectors can take 80 hours to certify. And 2 hours a day would take 40 work days or 80 total days since we only work half the days. And some areas have 7-9 sectors. Any part of the training process not happening will cause massive delays in the future
I want your sectors lol. You won’t get a recommend anything short of 100 at ours. 100-150 is the norm for almost all 6 of ours.

The r side trainees that have been working the entire time have only been getting 2-3 hours a training a WEEK during all this. It’s gonna be a long road for most of us.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,009
I want your sectors lol. You won’t get a recommend anything short of 100 at ours. 100-150 is the norm for almost all 6 of ours.

The r side trainees that have been working the entire time have only been getting 2-3 hours a training a WEEK during all this. It’s gonna be a long road for most of us.
Why would you get so few r side training hours? It should take extra people to train r side. Do they force everyone to 100-150? The 80 I was referencing was mins.
 

OKbusyB

Trusted Contributor
Messages
377
Why would you get so few r side training hours? It should take extra people to train r side. Do they force everyone to 100-150? The 80 I was referencing was mins.
I’m still on the D’s, so I have no idea why they’ve only been training so little. Just what my friends that are on the R’s have been saying.

They usually do push everyone to a lot of hours. Just the way it goes in our area.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,009
I’m still on the D’s, so I have no idea why they’ve only been training so little. Just what my friends that are on the R’s have been saying.

They usually do push everyone to a lot of hours. Just the way it goes in our area.
D is tough on 5/5. Recause you gotta open more Positions.
 

OKbusyB

Trusted Contributor
Messages
377
D is tough on 5/5. Recause you gotta open more Positions.
We’ll mostly likely train on 2-3 combined to get traffic to actually train on. But ya, not looking forward to the trickle of hours we’ll get on them. I was over 100 hours with a recommend waiting for the second when we shut down. I’ll have over 250 hours allotted for this sector when we go back to training lolol
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,009
We’ll mostly likely train on 2-3 combined to get traffic to actually train on. But ya, not looking forward to the trickle of hours we’ll get on them. I was over 100 hours with a recommend waiting for the second when we shut down. I’ll have over 250 hours allotted for this sector when we go back to training lolol
Your original hours still count tho? Hopefully they just let you warm up and take a check ride
 

OKbusyB

Trusted Contributor
Messages
377
Your original hours still count tho? Hopefully they just let you warm up and take a check ride
I’m pretty sure the training criteria said you have to hit minimums at least. I remember it saying something about having the regular amount of allotted hours plus what you already had spent on the sector to certify once you’d go back.

I’ll most likely have different trainers too, but hopefully a quick minimums. It’s our main arrival sector, so they’re pretty picky about things.
 

Mike Kilo

Legendary Member
Messages
1,620
I’m pretty sure the training criteria said you have to hit minimums at least. I remember it saying something about having the regular amount of allotted hours plus what you already had spent on the sector to certify once you’d go back.

I’ll most likely have different trainers too, but hopefully a quick minimums. It’s our main arrival sector, so they’re pretty picky about things.
So the mins don’t change and your hours you have already trained are still there. So if you were past minimums, you are still past them. They just add on 100 of hours originally allocated. This makes it so you do not have to build up to minimums again, but can instead train until you are ready and not worry about building enough hours up.
 

GulfBravoPapa

Forum Sage
Messages
1,192
I’m pretty sure the training criteria said you have to hit minimums at least. I remember it saying something about having the regular amount of allotted hours plus what you already had spent on the sector to certify once you’d go back.

I’ll most likely have different trainers too, but hopefully a quick minimums. It’s our main arrival sector, so they’re pretty picky about things.
If you had already trained for 100 hours and minimums were 80 with total allotted of 250 then you would still have a minimum 80 and be at 100 hours but there would now be 350 hours available to you. If you were already past minimums you're still past minimums, the extra time is added onto the end.
 

ATCNOMAD

Trusted Contributor
Messages
213
I get what you're trying to say Billy, and once again I'm not saying it will/is happening, as stated multiple times I'm not arguing the fact of it's existence and I'm confused on where you guys are getting lost in that.


To add onto what you were saying. There is literally nothing, absolutely zip, nada, goose egg that requires the government to cooperate with the NATCA CBA. Cooperation is 100% literally voluntary at all parts by the U.S. Government.

What're you gonna do sue the people with the money printer and then pay your members $12 each 8 years later as a result of "succesful" litigation?

See below, history literally disagrees with you on

I get what you're trying to say Billy, and once again I'm not saying it will/is happening, as stated multiple times I'm not arguing the fact of it's existence and I'm confused on where you guys are getting lost in that.


To add onto what you were saying. There is literally nothing, absolutely zip, nada, goose egg that requires the government to cooperate with the NATCA CBA. Cooperation is 100% literally voluntary at all parts by the U.S. Government.

What're you gonna do sue the people with the money printer and then pay your members $12 each 8 years later as a result of "succesful" litigation?

See below, history literally disagrees with you on every issue.
"There is literally nothing, absolutely zip, nada, goose egg that requires the government to cooperate with the NATCA CBA." Then why is there a contract in the first place? And why didn't trump just stop recognizing the CBA instead of writing EO's that won't take effect till the current contract is over? It would be a lawyers dream if the government attempted this. Its kinda laughable you are so into trying to explain into existence something that just wouldn't happen.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,009
Idk where you think I'm trying to explain anything into existence. Simply the fact of the matter that the government doesn't care about any bargaining contract and will openly and willingly violate any perceived "rights" we have as a counter to people on here saying we're safe because the CBA says so.

Again, what recourse would anyone have against the government?

They will openly and willingly break any contract.

What is a lawyer going to do to then besides collect the massive commission from the union?
The government gets injunctions and rulings against it all the time
 

Shikaka

Legendary Member
Messages
2,073
The government gets injunctions and rulings against it all the time
Ok...and?

You guys act like violating the CBA will bring a guillotine to the hill...

Instead it'll just make a lawyer rich off the commission and the government will just print more money. Violating labor agreements isn't a crime, it's a civil case.

"There is literally nothing, absolutely zip, nada, goose egg that requires the government to cooperate with the NATCA CBA." Then why is there a contract in the first place? And why didn't trump just stop recognizing the CBA instead of writing EO's that won't take effect till the current contract is over? It would be a lawyers dream if the government attempted this. Its kinda laughable you are so into trying to explain into existence something that just wouldn't happen.
Again...and again...point where I'm saying this is something in existence rather than arguing that it's something that can theoretically happen...
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,009
Ok...and?

You guys act like violating the CBA will bring a guillotine to the hill...

Instead it'll just make a lawyer rich off the commission and the government will just print more money. Violating labor agreements isn't a crime, it's a civil case.
I still don’t understand why any federal agency would fire people they have funding for? Are there any circumstances of our government doing this? The atcs were fired before for striking.

if congress passed some sort of across the board budget cuts then that would be a different story.
 

Shikaka

Legendary Member
Messages
2,073
I still don’t understand why any federal agency would fire people they have funding for? Are there any circumstances of our government doing this? The atcs were fired before for striking.

if congress passed some sort of across the board budget cuts then that would be a different story.
Idk, I literally have no clue what could trigger something. Trump could have one last hissy fit, he could fire the whole executive branch. Who would put it past him not to?

Budget cuts to wrangle in stimulus spending could possibly happen, depends on the fiscal policy of Congress in the future.

Who knows, but arguing it could never happen is ridiculous when it's in the CBA for a reason, we have probationary periods for a reason, and litigation is next to pointless since it's civil in nature.

Honestly, a Republican controlled congress would be willing and capable of doing it. A pissy Trump would too.
 

Billybob

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
356
Facility
ZLA Los Angeles Center
Idk, I literally have no clue what could trigger something. Trump could have one last hissy fit, he could fire the whole executive branch. Who would put it past him not to?

Budget cuts to wrangle in stimulus spending could possibly happen, depends on the fiscal policy of Congress in the future.

Who knows, but arguing it could never happen is ridiculous when it's in the CBA for a reason, we have probationary periods for a reason, and litigation is next to pointless since it's civil in nature.

Honestly, a Republican controlled congress would be willing and capable of doing it. A pissy Trump would too.
Your whole argument is based on what-if's on the worst possible case scenario and not really rooted in a reality we live in. What if Trump fired the whole government? What if they laid everybody off in the ATO? What if a Russian EMP goes off tomorrow and knocks out power to the entire eastern seaboard? You're overvaluing the potential for RIF's without giving any value to the absence of RIF's. Yes Reagan fired every ATC but that was a completely different time and PATCO violated federal law and some act of congress I can't remember by going on strike. Also the FAA is such a small percentage of the budget that the only reason to cut funding would be for optics which would backfire almost immediately. No politician is going to cut gov jobs to save a few million when the national debt is 20 trillion dollars.
 
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