2018 Convention

[Huntin_GI]

I figure it's one of those things, people who have it are interested in it's passing. People without it dislike the idea of being passed in seniority by some in the agency less time.

"Support the Troops! Oh it's gonna inconvience me... Nevermind, fuck that idea."

 

[DankVectorz]

I'm bottom bottom of the seniority list in my sector. Adding my military time would bump me up I think 3 or 4 slots. Still against it being counted for seniority. It already sucks when someone who got here before you but checked out later suddenly bumps you down the list. But as someone else pointed out, not all military time is military controller time. If you're going to count military time then you might as well count Federal service time, so that dude who worked at the Post Office for 5 years gets that added.

 

[breakaway2000]

To be fair, the majority of people who are outspoken against military time counting for seniority actually served in the military. Their primary argument against it is they got into the military to serve their country and changing an already established seniority date to incorporate military time is a self-serving agenda.

It will be a topic for every NATCA convention from now til the end of time. NATCA cannot say, "We've voted no the last 20 years on this exact amendment, we're not going to look at this amendment this year." Each submitted amendment will have the opportunity to be looked at, dissected, and potentially voted on.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Military varies over numerous benefits when joining the FAA. Years count towards leave earning bracket. Buy back years on pension. Veteran points when bidding etc. I know most military will disagree, but unless you were eligible to be dues paying members you should not get any time. This contract Tower shit pisses me off tono end. NATCA sold us out to gain more members/power. I will concede seniority to contract workers for the time they worked at their facility and when they were eligible to be covered by NATCA. Not I worked there 15 years ago and all of a sudden they are covered now, so just go ahead and tack on 3 years seniority for me.

 

[jdatc]

I figure it's one of those things, people who have it are interested in it's passing. People without it dislike the idea of being passed in seniority by some in the agency less time.

"Support the Troops! Oh it's gonna inconvience me... Nevermind, fuck that idea."

Look at airlines, whom started seniority in the Aviation industry well before us.

They didn’t count rival airline time, commuter time, military time, or crop dusting time.

In fact when airlines merge, the seniority lists becom a great point of contention.

Also, in airlines anyway, when economic times turn bad they furlough by reverse seniority.

What if that were to happen to us?

Should the guy who’s been controlling in the FAA 6 years get furloughed before the guy that had 6 years controlling in the military and 1 year in the FAA get furloughed?

How would the membership as a whole react?

Again, it depends on the demographics of how many peopl were ots/cti/vra in the Union when the vote comes due-

 

[DankVectorz]

I know most military will disagree, but unless you were eligible to be dues paying members you should not get any time.

Actually most ex-military I know don't think it should count towards seniority.

The only change I MIGHT be behind towards seniority is changing it to check out date rather than report date, but realistically that's probably a whole other group of issues that I haven't bothered to think of.

 

[ajmezz]

I'm surprised there isn't a minimum time after cpc before ERR eligibility.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Actually most ex-military I know don't think it should count towards seniority.

The only change I MIGHT be behind towards seniority is changing it to check out date rather than report date, but realistically that's probably a whole other group of issues that I haven't bothered to think of.

This would be like rewarding smart people over the dumb ones lol. Not to mention backlogs in trainees, sups sitting on recommends for no reason, people assigned to much more difficult areas (SFO finals vs Reno) etc.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I'm surprised there isn't a minimum time after cpc before ERR eligibility.

Should be same as a swap. Eligible to apply after one year CPC.

 

[DankVectorz]

This would be like rewarding smart people over the dumb ones

Your point?

 

[corn4ahead]

I am on board with Academy start date but some of the other proposals are crazy. My favorite was that seniority would be based on time at current facility. Hell to the no.

 

[chaos]

I don't think it will ever change but the idea I always thought was interesting was having your seniority based on the level facility you are in and years. Each year in a 6=6pts, in a 12=12pts etc. That way you don't have scammers from a level 6 coming to a 12 at the end of their careers trying to get their top three and then jumping people who have been there for 20 years. It would also be an incentive for people to go to high level places and leave new slots at low level facilities.

 

[Mike Kilo]

That would penalize people who weren’t lucky enough to get a high level facility to start. I was stuck in a 7. Should a guy from a 10 that started two year later come to my facility to save pay and have seniority over me? Nope.

 

[Aa12]

I don't see a point system based on your facility level ever happening for seniority. People don't chose to start at 4's or centers. Too much out of everyone's control to be basing something as big as seniority on.

Even the SCD argument is pretty worthless. Your faa natca ATC time should be the only factor in seniority.

If you are going to throw in SCD and those who worked at the TSA or the post office all of the sudden get seniority, why shouldn't I get seniority for my 2 random jobs before ATC that were unionized?

 

[Mike Kilo]

I flew out of an airport whose controllers were covered by NATCA back in 1990. I’m gonna need my seniority date to start then......

 

[ATC_av8er]

I am amused by the one that offers to let people quit the local union but stay in the national union...

Might be the one I proposed. I realized I needed to change a few things after the deadline. I'll just have to make a floor amendment there. The idea was to close the loophole and leave a member on the hook financially if they quit the union after attending a union funded function. Look at it the same way as someone bidding a management position.

 

[Aa12]

Might be the one I proposed. I realized I needed to change a few things after the deadline. I'll just have to make a floor amendment there. The idea was to close the loophole and leave a member on the hook financially if they quit the union after attending a union funded function. Look at it the same way as someone bidding a management position.

Pretty sure that's a different one.

This is the one others are referring to...

ADD NEW: Section 9. Membership to a Local is voluntary. Members may opt out of Local membership by submitting a written declaration to the Executive Vice President. Members that opt-out of membership in their Local shall remain members of the Union but are prohibited from participation in Local meetings and Local elections. All of the opt-out members’ dues will remain at the national level. Opt-out members will remain so until thirty (30) days after the next local officer election.

 

[Dontbotherme]

I’m against anytime other than FAA ATC-2152 time counting. If you weren’t actively moving airplanes with the FAA, it shouldn’t count at all.


Not in the discussion, but figured I’d mention them here.
Two other things:
Military hires shouldn’t have to buy back their time. It should be considered a “recruitment bonus” by the FAA and get added onto your retirement when you’re done.

I’ve been told that the union is pushing to move the mandatory retirement age to 57. That way, if you have 30+ years of governmental service and retire at 57, you’ll get 1.7% for every year of ATC with the FAA (you could even further that and include military/DOD time). I’d like to see 30 years, at any age, gets you retirement at 1.7% for every year of ATC.

 

[LEAD004]

Agreed^

 

[AlphaLima]

How would one go about proposing an amendment to the ERR MOU that people at below staffing min facilities can submit ERR's after 5 years of post-certification time at a facility? Or saying the union should pursue something like that?

I would want to see something more than just being able to submit after 5 years. Otherwise we're at the same point where are now except we get to wait 5 years and then be ignored for everything we submit.